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LOVE SAFETY
NET
Transcript
of July 13, 2009, program
“Reality Check”
STEVE: Hi
everyone, and welcome to The Love Safety Net.
KIM: I’m
Kim.
STEVE: And
I’m Steve. And this week’s show is called “Reality Check”.
Now Kim,
when people first find our web site on line, often their head is
spinning with questions about narcissism and all the problems
associated with it. They have so many questions and they ask us
lots and lots all at once. It is very difficult to really pin
it down.
KIM: Yeah,
and I really sympathize with that—with how it can really be a
head spinner—whether it’s through our site or when people first
discover perhaps their partner is narcissistic or has
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In today’s show, I hope we
can make this a lot clearer. We are going to tackle a few more
questions that have been sent in. We are going to talk a little
more about the reality of this, what it looks like, and what
recovery looks like. I think probably to me, Steve—and I know
you feel strongly about this as well—the fact that we really see
this as a moral issue and not a medical issue. We are not
doctors. We are coming at this from a couple whose relationship
was completely on Skid Row. We were completely broke. I had
debt collectors coming around all the time. We were just
basically moving into a commission flat, I think. Not that that
could be the worst thing happening—there was plenty of other bad
stuff happening.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: And
this was when I first discovered this disorder and found out
about it. I was completely spun out. I think we get concerned
about that, however, because as people start running and saying
“this is a medical issue” then all the things come up where
people say “can this be cured/can this not be cured?” and “are
there drugs to treat this?” and then this becomes the whole
issue. I get really upset with these people who say this can’t
be cured, because this is a moral issue. When we are
talking about all the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality
Disorder, they are all moral issues—lying, cheating, alcoholism,
misappropriating money, affairs (affairs aren’t always in the
mix but there is usually a lot of stuff their partners don’t
know about—and there is a lot of shifting of blame going on).
These are moral issues. If we are going to say it’s
impossible to protect our family’s morals and our values, then
what good are we going to do to society? Of course there have
got to be ways to protect ourselves.
STEVE:
Absolutely, so the idea of calling this show “Reality Check” is
on almost all of the very important topics you just mentioned,
Kim. We want to slow them all down and get them right back to
reality. Now where are you at. OK, we know that everyone’s
heads are spinning. We know that people are all of a sudden
thinking narcissism is a medical problem. We get a lot of
people contacting us presuming and assuming that that is going
to be the problem and that drugs are probably going to be the
best course of action. But through our material and through
this very radio show today, we are going to say “no”. Now hang
on; and let’s get back to look at the moral problem here. There
are a myriad of them and we just ran through a few of them, Kim.
KIM: Yeah,
and I think another one too, Steve, is at the very beginning of
this is this kind of fantasy idea we have about love where
that’s the first thing and that’s the most important thing.
That whether our partner loves us or not, or is being nice
to us at the moment or not is everything. I don’t think this is
reality. I think there is a lot of growing up that needs to
happen in families if they are going to get through this and
hope to have anything like the kind of positive results we’ve
had. I had to do an enormous amount of growing up.
There are a lot of people out there that don’t want to see
that. They want to say that if you have a narcissistic partner
it is all their fault, there is nothing you can do and you are a
complete victim. I really counter that because there was an
enormous amount of growing up I needed to do to put my security
and my family’s security first and to make that the priority
rather than this idea about whether you loved me or not—which is
important, of course it’s important, but—
STEVE: But
when the fairytale gets smashed, all the king's horses and all
the king's men cannot put it back together again.
KIM: Well,
not if you start with love as being your priority, I don’t
think.
STEVE: I
think the fairytale you talk about, Kim—the ideal fairytale of
love is very important. When that does get smashed sometimes
people don’t want to see that because it’s very painful.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: I
just wanted to quickly mention, Kim, as I thought of this
before. I think the supplement that most people are looking for
now is a moral fiber tablet.
KIM:
(laughing) Yeah that would be about right. I think that’s
absolutely what most people are lacking. I won’t get into it
too much this show—we will talk about it next week a little bit
more—but I have just about finished a new book, which is
called Emotional Stupidity. I tell you what, researching
that I can’t agree with you more. Moral fiber is definitely
lacking. (laughing)
STEVE:
(laughing) Well, we are doing our best here.
KIM: Okay,
so getting down to reality, Steve. Where do we go. Well, you
have a bit of a checklist in front of you, haven’t you?
STEVE: I
do.
KIM: Of
things people can ask themselves if they want to actually look
and say where am I, where do I start with this, and what should
be my priorities at the moment.
STEVE:
Absolutely. One of the very good questions is how much money
have I got. How much money do I have on hand? How much money
can I draw on? There are all sorts of good questions to ask
yourself. What kind of access to funds do I have, and what kind
of risk is there if someone else can get their hands on it.
Those are all really great questions.
KIM:
Yeah. I know one of the questions from readers coming up gets
into that. And we don’t necessarily have all the answers about
these things. These are things you’ve got to get your focus
onto, about your own security and your own financial security.
STEVE: The
other one is are your kids safe and getting enough attention?
KIM: And
this is such an enormous thing. It is so, so important
that you don’t lose focus of this. It happens all the time when
the love is missing in a relationship or when there are
difficulties or jealousies or suspicion going on, it is very,
very easy for the kids to be the ones that end up taking the
brunt of it. They are not getting the attention they need and
they will often side with the partner they see as the stronger
one in the relationship so it can be confusing. You should
never be looking for your kids to take sides with you—that is
not their role.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: You
are there to take care of them and look after them—they are not
there to take care and look after you. You can’t put your
emotional problems on your kids.
STEVE:
Absolutely. And making sure your kids are safe is one of the
most important priorities we have as human beings on this
planet.
KIM: Well,
it should be.
STEVE:
Exactly, in any type of program that has to do with change for
the better.
So the next
item on the checklist is what problems do you have that might be
affecting your survival. We have all sorts of different
subheadings under that.
KIM: The
partner’s own issues they need to be looking at: do they have
addictions going on, is there gambling—just all of these real
things that are going on in your life that are affecting your
security and affecting the security of your kids. If you are
letting your emotional problems get in the way of your security,
your well being, and your children’s well being—then there is a
really big problem there that is bigger than just your partner.
I know that was a huge wake up call for me and it was really
painful for me. It took my mum having to actually say to me
that I was neglecting my kids. I was really ashamed of that,
and that was a really big wake up call for me. The love and the
fairytale happy ending isn’t always the #1 priority Because if
you are not taking care of your own self, you are not taking
care of your needs, and you are not really thinking about your
children and the people dependent on you in the way you should,
it’s not only obviously damaging to you. If you have this idea
somebody else is going to come in and save you, I would think
again about that.
STEVE: Or
you are at risk of losing a lot more.
KIM: Yeah,
because that might not actually happen. It may only be you
where the buck stops. And the other thing is it makes you
look weak and foolish too. With a narcissistic partner, they
are not going to feel sympathy for you. They are just going to
leave that as reason to reject you further or just think you are
a fool. I mean, in a lot of ways I see back then I was acting
like a fool—running around just worried about your behavior, and
not looking after myself and the kids enough.
STEVE:
Well it didn’t leave anything to build on, did it Kim?
KIM: Well,
it certainly didn’t gain your respect. Let’s put it that way.
STEVE: No,
that’s right. The conflict continued indefinitely.
KIM: So I
think there are other priorities, whether it’s a cold splash in
the face to say what do I need to be attending to in my life,
and making sure that comes first. I have some fairly strong
feelings about that. I won’t go into it too much, but I just
think we come from such a “me first” generation, where you see
people just making these decisions and they are based around
love, with so little thought and consideration for their
children or the consequences these things are going to have in
other areas of their life.
STEVE:
Yeah, exactly. And also getting back to the financial issue, it
is not just getting down to how much money I have, but it’s also
what kind of income am I able to earn. What kind of plan B and
plan C do I have in terms of making some money if this doesn’t
work out or doesn’t go quite the way I was hoping. You know,
there is a whole issue about how are you going to earn some cash
if you need to, which I know you are working on some material,
Kim.
KIM:
(laughing) Which is my next book, after this one.
And what do
you do with the money after you make it. That you are saving
and investing wisely and you are actually building some sort of
solid base for yourself for the future We are really not
encouraged to do that, we are just encouraged to spend, spend,
spend, and not worry about tomorrow. But tomorrow does come.
STEVE:
Absolutely. Now are we ready for some reader’s questions, Kim?
KIM: Yes.
Definitely.
STEVE:
Okay, so let’s hop right into it.
KIM: We
are going to get through them a bit faster this week.
STEVE:
Absolutely. So the first question I’ve got here Kim is:
“Kim, I discovered a year ago that my spouse is using
pornography and having affairs. Although I could never prove
it, I knew it and in fact I knew that one of the relationships
was with our neighbor. In such a situation, how does one gain
attachment and provide safety when there is no smoking gun
evidence, and the spouse is in complete denial?”
KIM: Okay.
STEVE:
Lots of love from Latonia. And now she says: PS—My husband and
I have come a long way.
KIM: Yes,
I have had a few letters and it’s just wonderful to hear how
they are. We only included the second half of that letter, but
she was telling how far they have come and how well they are
doing now, which is always just fantastic to hear.
I think the
thing in this case is you don’t have the smoking gun and you
don’t have the evidence…I don’t know, does it really matter?
Attachment is in the present. I’m not saying affairs don’t
matter—of course they matter. But it’s about building
attachment and trust now. I think a big part of building
attachment and trust now is that if things have improved and you
are doing better there isn’t this enormous need to go and rehash
over and go through the past. I mean, I think it’s important
for people to be held accountable if it’s in the present and
things are happening. But for the past I think a lot of times
if things really have improved—he’s attached to you now, things
are getting better, and you are wiser than you were back
then—sometimes I think you can just let the past go. On that,
there is a fantastic newsletter by a fellow called Dr. Gunzburg
called “Surviving An Affair” which I often recommend. He has a
good program too. I am not an affiliate or anything. I wish I
was. I have written to him and he hasn’t written back.
(laughing) So if you’re out there, Dr.
Gunzburg, please
answer my emails because I am actually quite a fan of yours.
STEVE: Dr
Gunzburg goes into acknowledging the hurt a lot too, and you
have to acknowledge this has hurt you. I think there’s a
feeling this is going to hurt forever—I don’t think you can
erase it. But that’s different from what you are saying, Kim.
You know, you are saying you really can’t stay too emotional
about it. There is a point where you have to move past it.
Don’t try to go back to it, but you do have to acknowledge that
yeah, I’m hurt and this was not ideal.
KIM: And
trust needs to be rebuilt now. And if it’s right in current
time, I think there definitely is some healing and disclosure,
and you do need to maybe push for that more. But if this is
something in the past that was like a year ago now…and I’ve had
some psychologists disagree with me about this, because you know
they make their living about people going over and over the past
to heal stuff—but myself I haven’t really seen the benefit in
that. I think that going over unpleasant things in the past can
bring up more heartache and trouble than it’s worth. I’m not
talking about living in denial either—that’s different. I think
you need to be wide awake about what is going on in
present time in your life, and not let anybody pull the wool
over your eyes.
STEVE: But
definitely go and check out Dr Frank Gunzburg’s email online
because it does actually go into that directly in much more
clarity than we do—
KIM: About
affairs.
STEVE:
Yes, about affairs. Now the other thing I was going to say,
Kim, is maybe you can go and find that smoking gun. I mean,
there will be a smoking gun somewhere. And we have another
piece of material coming up soon that is about how to get your
hands on a private investigator and the value of a private
investigator—if you’re ready for that.
KIM: I
think you are working on that, aren’t you, Steve?
STEVE:
Yeah, I am. It’s going to be really enjoyable and I think it’s
a really important step for some people to take if they need
it.
KIM: It is
important to get yourself out of the dark, definitely.
STEVE: So
the next question is “Hi. My wife has Narcissistic Personality
Disorder, heavily in debt with overspending on credit cards. I
am actually going through bankruptcy for $100,000. She doesn’t
care, but I do. What responsibility should I take, given the
bankruptcy would affect me and the small kids also?” And that
is from John.
KIM:
Ugh. Okay, this really gets into the hard core reality of what
this looks like, living with someone who has Narcissistic
Personality Disorder. I really can’t answer that, John, but you
are absolutely on the right course. You are thinking in the
right way and there is no sloppy thinking there. This is
completely what you need to figure out. And you need to do
whatever you need to do to protect yourself from your wife if
she is this kind of financial liability affecting your security
and your kids’ security.
STEVE:
We’re talking about a lot of money here.
KIM: Yes,
a lot of money. So I think you definitely need to get some very
good legal aid advice. Get a second opinion too—don’t just get
one opinion. I would go out and get as many opinions from as
many people as you can and just use some critical thinking in
terms of really deciding who you are going to trust, to take
their advice. Just do the hard work, as painful as it is,
separating your finances from her and protecting your assets
from her debt and make sure you and your children are provided
for. This is always an enormous problem with
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is so sad for me where in
the past where people would email me and say, well there’s no
problem with my husband with money, he saves his money,
everything is fine with that. He’s always giving money away
left, right and center. And I just kind of shiver and shudder
and think, oh no, this person’s got a real hard-core reality
check coming up. And invariably that’s what happens. Three or
four months later I get an email from them and they say, oh
actually I find out that he is actually $2 million in debt.
STEVE:
Sure, well I think we have given this advice before and I think
it’s good to reiterate it here that we need to make people face
the consequences of their actions. So this person—John—your
wife had racked up $100,000 on a credit card. Good Lord.
KIM: We
know a woman who did that.
STEVE:
Yeah, we do. And that’s just outrageous. But the thing is you
can now see the consequences of this are you are now going to
get some legal advice and some financial advice and know that
anything you do is not going to affect my future income
earnings, the children’s future…
KIM: You
have to protect yourself in every way.
STEVE:
Inheritance or whatever it may be. You have to protect yourself
in a cold way and say, look, on a financial level you are really
showing yourself to be a complete liability.
KIM: And a
danger.
STEVE: And
a danger to the children. So I don’t think he needs to be
afraid to say look, I love you and I care about you. I want to
bring you back into the family and we want to make sure you are
loved, but on the financial level you really screwed up
yourself.
KIM: Yeah,
and I’m not going to be in denial about this and we are not
going to hide this or pretend that this doesn’t exist. I am
going to do what I need to protect myself and protect the kids.
STEVE:
Okay, let’s move on to the next one: "Dear Kim and Steve,
I do have a question. Thank you for all your hands-on advice—it
does work. My question is this: I can handle my husband now,
but he still has a problem with our three grown up children.
It’s kind of a jealousy toward them, especially my daughter, who
is already the proud mom of a 3-week-old baby boy…what a joy!.
She cannot forgive her father for the damaging insults and the
criticism from the past. How can I approach this problem? She
is 32 years old. My oldest son is 33 years old and he is very
successful in his career and it seems to me my husband does not
grant him success, always criticizing him behind his back I my
presence. I cannot handle this."
KIM:
Hmmm. Okay. I think this question really sort of leads nicely
into what we will talk about next, about what recovery looks
like. I think that was definitely one of the hardest things with
you, Steve, (laughing) I hate to admit it. You really broke
down and were able to show your vulnerability to me in the early
days, but it really did take a lot longer with the kids. And
it’s still an ongoing thing now. I am not saying you are mean
to the kids, or bad to the kids, or abusive to the kids—you’re a
great dad. But you are not yourself with the kids like you are
with me.
STEVE:
That’s right. I think I’m attached to you more than I am with
the kids.
KIM: With
me, you can show your vulnerability and I have earned that trust
with you. But with the kids you put on that “I’m so important
and I’m so busy…”
STEVE: And
I’m in charge.
KIM: “And
I’m in charge. And you are going to just do as I say.”
STEVE:
Guilty as charged.
KIM:
(laughing) Is that all you’ve got to say, Steve?
STEVE:
Well, it’s true. What Kim just said is absolutely true. It’s
the way things are.
KIM: Yeah,
so it’s a good question and it’s a difficult one. I don’t think
there are really any easy answers there and I think it’s more
important, however, that you just keep leading by good example.
(laughing) And that you take one of those moral fiber tablets
Steve was talking about every day.
STEVE:
Yeah, that’s right.
KIM: Be
the best parent you can be for your adult kids and help them see
if maybe there are some gaps in their development you can be
encouraging them to fill in. I think the thing is—and this
comes into my new book as well, which is on my mind because I’ve
been just writing it and that’s where my head is at—but in the
new book Emotional Stupidity this idea of taking personal
responsibility for yourself is very contagious.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: And
as hard as it is to do, to admit our own weaknesses and to start
opening tackling them and to be open with other people that we
have this problem and we are working on it, particularly if you
do it a grounded, real way. Not like you suddenly become the
preacher, like you are on a higher moral ground and you are
better than everybody else, then it’s not catching. Then
everyone is just going to run away.
STEVE:
That’s true.
KIM: But
if you quietly just start tackling your own problems like you
have seen me do in the last three or four years. I’m even
getting fit now and losing weight and I’ve stopped smoking and
I’ve stopped drinking. I am not on any medication anymore. I am
really proud of all those achievements. I am eating better. As
you just keep working on that self-development and tackling the
things you need to tackle in yourself, it does have a ripple
effect in your family and I think it is kind of a member at a
time.
STEVE: And
even if that means you are going to stop protecting your husband
from his poor attitude toward the kids. Even if that means you
make a step toward saying “ok, look you’re on your own from
here”.
KIM: Yes.
STEVE:
Because often what we hear from a lot of people who write to us
is that we do make situations where we will protect each other.
In this situation perhaps—I’m not sure—she might be protecting
her husband from insulting the kids and trying to be a buffer
with some of the conflict between the husband and the kids. She
may be helping resolve the conflict—and that’s probably not the
wrong thing to do, but in some ways it is prolonging the
conflict. She may have to look at that as well and say “okay,
I’m not going to step in anymore”. “If you are going to be a
jerk and upset the kids, I am not going to come in and try and
protect anybody. There are just going to be some
consequences”. Even if she has to be brave enough to then say,
maybe the consequences are you are never going to see your
grandkid again. Or whatever it is. Maybe the consequences
don’t have to be as drastic as that, but the consequences have
to fit the crime.
KIM: I
think it’s also important that you point out these are adult
children, and this can be the case with adult children. But
with kids who are younger, you *do* have to protect them. I used
to be in that position all the time and it was awful, where I
would have to come between you and the kids all the time because
I felt you were way too harsh and way too critical of them when
they were young. And that was an awful position. What I know
now is I would have not only come between you and the kids, but
I would have organized back-up support. I hate to admit even to
this day if you are being a goose with the kids I will call you
on it—even in front of them—and tell you you’re being a goose.
STEVE:
Yeah, that works.
KIM:
(laughing) It’s a fine line, though. I mean I’m still
respecting you as a person but…
STEVE:
Sure. But it’s a good point you make. What I was saying before
was about adult children. But, if this is with younger children
absolutely step in and be a buffer and bring in support.
Take the fight up for them if need be.
KIM: Yes,
you have to do that. You can’t just ignore what is happening
with the kids, particularly if they are younger. But it’s a
question I’m sorry I can’t help more than that.
STEVE:
I’ve got a question here, Kim, that has broken my rule of one
question per question from last week’s show.
KIM:
(laughing) But this came in before that.
STEVE:
Okay, that’s fine. So Hi Kim and Steve. Yes we do have two
questions. If you can, it would be great if you could answer
for us:
-
Steve, do you find your
behavior is now second nature (0 narcissistic tendency) or
do you consciously have to think about your actions at all
times.
-
Since realizing my
husband is narcissistic (and thanks to your web site), does
depression and the lack of understanding of Narcissistic
Personality Disorder run hand-in-hand with the narcissist.
That is, my husband is taking antidepressants well over a
year now, hopefully to come off them in the future. He
thought he was depressed with anger. Abuse was blamed on
depression until we went to your web site, which opened up a
whole new area of discovery, not only for my husband but for
us as a couple. I would like to thank you both for the time
you spend helping others, as you have helped us. It is on
my to-do list to write to your our story on your blog page
and highlight the difficulties we have encountered.
Realizing my husband is narcissistic and the lack of
confidence I had in myself. Receiving your emails weekly
and listening to the radio show weekly has just been
fantastic. Please don’t ever stop, as you give so much
great advice and insight on how to cope, care for yourself
and loved ones. It’s truly amazing and we would have been
lost without having the information on your web site to see
us through. Keep up your great work, Kim and Steve. I look
forward to listening to the radio show.
And that’s
from Nicky and Adrian in New Zealand.
Thank you
very much, guys about the wonderful things you said about the
show and us and the web site. So we will jump straight into
question one, since that was for me.
KIM: Yep.
STEVE:
That question was do you find the behavior second nature, or do
you consciously have to think about your actions sometimes.
Well I have
to admit that I don’t think any of us, including myself, have
zero narcissistic tendencies. I still think—and it’s
interesting because people have asked me this before—but I’m
probably still as narcissistic as I was years ago. I have just
learned to use some different skills, more honesty, and more
vulnerability. There is more vulnerability than before. But
I’m still very narcissistic. When we are in a social group, I
am very much propelled toward being the life of the party, being
the host with the most, telling the jokes…
KIM:
(laughing) Making everyone laugh.
STEVE:
Making everyone laugh, making everyone look at me, etc, etc. I
think I don’t make a fool of myself as I used to. I mean, I used
to do that and not leave room for anybody else, for instance. I
mean a long time ago when I was really in the worst of it. I
used to carry on with narcissistic type behavior in ways that
would really not allow room for anybody else. But I think now I
am much more calculated about it. In a social situation, for
instance, I can still make people laugh because I love doing
that and I like the value of what a narcissistic person can do
in terms of breaking down tensions in a social situation, for
instance. I feel like I’m very good at breaking the ice. I’m
very good at making groups of people laugh—sometimes I’m very
bad at it, but I’m confident enough to do that. I think
now what I do is step back and say I’m the head of a family here
and I’ve got a wife and I’ve got kids and I can’t just be the
only one who is getting attention here. I really do need to
make sure everybody gets a turn. I need to make sure everyone
is getting supported if they are telling a joke, for instance.
I am talking on a very superficial level here, in terms of being
in a social situation. I always use this theme because it’s a
good way of illustrating it. And it’s always how I remember
myself as being the worst. I would really make a fool of
myself just trying to be the funniest guy, be the best host in
the world making the most wonderful hors d’oeuvres, and filling
everybody’s wine glass, and telling jokes, and remembering
people’s names. All of these are all things that don’t probably
have a lot of value.
KIM:
(laughing) Well, the guests usually liked it. Although you would
make a fool of yourself in front of your family.
STEVE:
Well, that’s right.
KIM: And
you weren’t like that when other people weren’t around. When
other people weren’t around you were just horrible to us.
STEVE:
That’s right, it was an act.
KIM: Well
now your charisma you share with us as well. And I don’t think
charisma is what we are talking about here. Narcissistic
Personality Disorder with the aggression and the two-faced side
of it, I mean, you are just past that now. It’s not like it’s
something you have to constantly monitor yourself about. All
that went really, didn’t it, when you decided to trust?
STEVE:
Yeah, and that’s where you can probably talk about some of the
things you did Kim a bit later. But that was it. The trust was
built and I could feel I could be myself with you guys. I
didn’t have to protect anything false anymore. I could just be
real. I could afford to be real with you, I could afford to be
real with everybody.
KIM: So
recovery was more like in relation of letting go and before that
was when you were just constantly on edge and had to monitor
everything. You know, because when you are lying and you are
deceiving people and you are playing people off against each
other, you have to remember everything all the time, don’t you?
STEVE:
Yeah, it’s really hard work, and it’s really stressful.
KIM: Yeah,
you were so anxious and uptight and you never had any room for
attention for the people you were with because you always had
all this stuff going on in your head. Your anxiety levels back
then were just enormous.
STEVE:
Absolutely. And having to maintain that false fa�ade, I needed
to have everything perfect. Everything had to be a perfect
wall. And you know, it’s really hard to make everything
perfect. And of course I had to embrace being an imperfect
human being, which I have now. I can afford to let go a bit and
I can say okay, well if I make a mistake I can make a mistake
and be wrong because I’m in good company with people who love
me.
KIM: Mmmm.
And you’ve got that trust.
I was going
to get to this later, Steve, but I think it’s a good point now
about what recovery looks like. We will get to it again in a
little bit. But I think the biggest image I’ve had in my head
of you when the real turning point came, was it was like a
balloon just being deflated of air. It was a complete letting
go. It wasn’t like you just decided you were going to start
monitoring your behavior. It was the opposite, it was that you
just let it all go and went okay, the game is up and there isn’t
any more pretending. And you were very, very vulnerable after
that. I think that is something that is very important for
people to understand. I have people write to me and they will
say things like “my husband was so much better but now he is
flaring up again and he is having problems again and how long is
it going to take until he is completely cured?” But at the same
time in their letters they stay they are studying for a PhD, the
person and their partner both have kids that they are looking
after, they are re-wallpapering the house, and all this stuff
they are doing, and I’m going out of town on business and I’ve
got this, and this, and this, and this and this. And I think,-
wow, okay. You can’t expect you are going to be able to help
your partner through this if you haven’t got the time.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
Because when somebody drops a whole game and they let go of
this, they re going to be vulnerable as a little child. I mean
that’s how you were really for a couple years. And we would
get criticism sometimes with our radio show with people saying
things like you’re a lot more confident than you used to be and
then say Steve is just a puppet and does whatever you want him
to say and we would get some criticism. And I would write to
these people and say that that’s just the reality of it, you
know? For you to come out in a public way and talk about this
is not something that is easy for you to do.
STEVE: No,
it’s still not easy. And we are not trying to make it seem
simple. But the recovery does look like what you just said,
Kim. I just could let go and I just could say, okay, Kim has me
cornered here. She has really built a network of support
around her. People know what is going on, the reality. They
were seeing through the false front I put up. Okay, I had two
choices. I could have fought you and said no you’re all wrong
and thrown a big tantrum.
KIM:
(laughing) You tried that for quite a while.
STEVE:
Yeah, I did that for 10 years or so. Then there was the option
of me letting go, just like a balloon and all the air went out
of it.
KIM: Well,
you were really cornered. And that’s the other mistake that I
really hear a lot is people saying I’ve learned to get in
control of my emotions better, I am not flying off the handle.
All that stuff is extremely important about getting grounded
like that, but our program and what we recommend is not about
being nice. (laughing) Well, it’s about being nice and helping
build trust, because by the time you were cornered and you
realized you didn’t have any choice but to drop the game.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: I
mean, already I had made friends with enough people in the
community that respected me. I had shown clearly that I wasn’t
going to protect or hide anything you were doing. I felt
confident enough and good enough about myself that the things
you were doing didn’t have to reflect on me and the kids. It
was your stuff and you were going to have to wear it. The issue
really came down over pornography which some of you have talked
about. I was going to get a very good friend of yours you were
working on projects with who was a minister and would have been
absolutely appalled to know that there was any problem with
pornography in our house. When I said am I going to have to
call him and get him to help you through this, Steve, because
what is going to happen? This is not going to happen here and
what you are doing is not all right. I remember it was like the
air where you were going to blow up and get mad—
STEVE:
Another tantrum…
KIM: --and
then you just toppled. But there were all sorts of other
measures I had put in place and all sort of other boundaries
that had been set there. I mean I wouldn’t say you should do
that straight off the bat. I had already put a lot of work into
setting it up. But you also realized that when you dropped the
game and just let it go that you were safe.
STEVE:
Absolutely.
KIM: That
you did have that option and you could drop your pride because
you saw by that stage that I was strong and I was somebody that
you could count on.
STEVE:
Yes, I felt safe and that was really important.
KIM: And
what really mattered to me is that the bad behavior stopped and
the lies stopped and the game was dropped. I wasn’t going to
try and punish you for what happened in the past, but that you
had to let the game go.
STEVE:
Now, Kim, we are down to the last 2 minutes. Today went quicker
than I thought.
KIM: Okay,
well we will do one more question, hey?
STEVE:
Okay, so the next question is:
How long do
you wait it out? He drinks and he has cheated. When I asked
him to move out, he acts like it’s all my fault. He won’t take
any time to try and work on the marriage. He constantly rejects
any invitation and I am losing hope. I know I still love him
but when is it time to give up?
KIM: Okay,
well from this question it shows me this person hasn’t read our
books and hasn’t read our material because just asking somebody
to move out is exactly going to just have them saying it’s your
fault. That is the game that happens. When is a time to give
up? Only you can decide that. Only you can know what you have
invested in the relationship and whether it is worth working on
or not. Nobody else can make that decision. If you do make that
decision and you want to try and save the marriage or even if
you don’t and you want to understand differently to make sure it
doesn’t happen again, I would highly recommend that you read
Back from the Looking Glass and The Love Safety Net
Workbook.
STEVE:
Kim, I would also mention that you are not wrong to love this
person even if you are having all these problems, if you love
someone then you love them. You can’t get mixed up in that if
your heart loves him. But if your heart is really questioning
if you should be with him, then you need to listen to that
also.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE:
There’s no real easy answer here.
KIM: But
asking them to move out isn’t going to change their behavior.
STEVE: So
last question here—a quick one: "Where can I get your
e-books and/or help. I am trying to find the right counselor
and/or your books."
KIM: Okay,
well our web site is the place to do that. You go to
www.narcissismcured.com . You can’t find out books in the
library or the bookshop as of yet. And if you subscribe to our
list there, that is by far the best way of purchasing our
products because you will get big discounts. There will be an
introductory special you will be offered after you are sent an
email that will give you almost %50 off the whole program, which
includes Back from the Looking Glass, The Love Safety Net
Workbook, and also a brilliant audio called Understanding
Love, which is about the basics of love. Then we’ve got a bunch
of other material because people like it and keep asking us to
write more and have more questions, so I keep going with it. At
that web site at
www.narcissismcured.com, there is also a product if you
don’t want to subscribe where you pay full price for the
products.
STEVE:
That’s at
www.narcissismcured.com. And we’re going to have to leave
it there, Kim.
KIM: Yes.
There is one question we missed but we will keep going answering
a few questions each show.
STEVE:
Thanks Kim. Thanks for coming and doing this again. I’m really
enjoying it.
KIM:
Thanks. Bye!
STEVE:
Bye!
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