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LOVE SAFETY
NET
Transcript
of April 5, 2010, program
“The Power of Love -- Part 1 ”
KIM:
Hi, I’m Kim.
STEVE:
Hi, and I’m Steve. And you are listening to the Love Safety Net
on Global Talk Radio.
KIM: We
are really glad to be back. Today we have Part 1 of a show for
you called, “The Power of Love”.
STEVE:
And by the end of today’s show, we hope we can clear up any
confusion you might be having about love and power; such as,
“What is
true power”?
“Is it
good or is it bad?”
KIM:
And
“Can we
hold power over someone and still be loved by that person?”
STEVE:
And
“How is
power shared? Can you do that by giving your power away?”
KIM: So
I hope by the end of today’s show we have really helped clear up
some of these possibly confusing questions. Now, Steve, there
has been so many chart-topping songs called “The Power of
Love”.
STEVE:
Yeah, I think there were two or three different songs back in
the 1980s.
KIM:
Yeah, I think I nearly remember all three of those (laughing).
So, obviously this is something people really believe in. This
is something people want to believe in. It’s something
maybe people are looking for…but, I mean, is there reality in
this? Because I know in the past that love has left me feeling
pretty weak. That it has even-I hate to admit it—but I think
there were times in our marriage where I think we both felt that
love was more of a prison (or our marriage was more of a prison)
and had really disempowered us rather than giving us power.
STEVE:
Yeah, I think everyone has probably felt that at some stage,
Kim. That they are in jail in this relationship and there is no
way of getting out of it. I feel completely powerless—I sure
have and I know you did.
KIM: Not
anymore (laughing).
STEVE: I
don’t feel like that anymore. That’s why we are here talking
about it.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
But it’s true. I think I get enough people writing to us on the
Help Desk, talking to us about this same kind of issue. They
just have no idea how they are going to get out of this
relationship. But most of the time they don’t want to get out.
They just want to get the power balance right.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
But by the time they are writing to us—they feel like they are
in prison…absolutely.
KIM:
Well, it can really become a very big knot—like a big
tangle—where you just lie awake at night or you wake up in the
morning and you just think, “How did I get myself into this
situation? And how do I get myself out of this situation?” And
really this can become very depressing and feel very hopeless
for people, I know. And I’m not going to pretend that
unraveling that knot is going to be an easy thing to do. Of
course, it’s not an easy thing to do. So, Steve, let’s start
with the sorting this from that. Anyone who has read the
Love Safety Net Workbook (and I really highly
recommend you do if you haven’t read it yet. It has just
recently been updated. If you have bought it in the past and
you want the updated version, just let us know on the Help
Desk.) In that, I talk about sorting this from that. Now that
comes from an old fairytale and we like referring to old
fairytales sometimes, don’t we?
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
Most people are probably familiar with this. It comes in a few
different forms. It’s where there is a girl and there is a
witch and the girl is required to do certain tasks—with piles of
seed. And she has to complete this task overnight of sorting
the seeds into their different varieties, but the pile of seeds
is very huge.
STEVE:
Yeah, overwhelming.
KIM:
Yeah. And in the modern day version of the fairytale, some
magical creature comes and helps her with the task and the girl
just gets to sleep. And this is really—I’m trying to think of
the word for it—but the old fairytale has been misconstrued.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
That is not how the old fairytale went, and it’s not what it was
trying to teach. The woman in the original fairytale was not a
witch, and these tasks that the girl was being given were
instructional. They were tasks that were actually very
important, and they were important for the girl to grow to
maturity.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM: So
in this lesson, that message was about sorting this from that.
And there does come a time in our life when we do have to sort
this from that. If we are in a bad marriage, we have to start
untangling that knot and looking at the different areas rather
than letting everything just kind of all come into one big
mish-mash or one big knot. And I’m sure you get a lot of that
on the Help Desk, Steve, where people write in and they are just
jumping all over the place.
STEVE:
Yeah, I get plenty of 10-page letters from people.
KIM:
Yeah (laughing).
STEVE:
And that is the big knot you are talking about.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
And I don’t want to discourage people from writing everything
they feel like writing to us—because it’s important to actually
write it out—I know that can be therapeutic and helpful. But
that big knot is just too much to handle all at once.
KIM:
And it’s not always possible for us to read and understand it
all.
STEVE:
Well, exactly. So us here on the Help Desk and our staff on
the Help Desk read these long letters from people in these
massive knots, which is their current relationship.
KIM:
And the staff do their best to help, which is usually directing
them to the Love Safety Net Workbook , where we start to
unravel that. And so, you know, so getting into that basically
because I want to end up on one of those areas today that we are
going to concentrate on—first, talking about power (which is
limiting abuse) so we are going to get into that very
specifically—about dealing with power.
But let’s
just go over all four areas just briefly first. Because where I
am getting at here, Steve, is I have found some people tend to
have similar problems in sorting this from that in two of these
areas.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
So the first is building attachment.
STEVE:
Yeah. Building attachment with your partner. We are talking
about four different areas that need to happen all at once here,
by the way, if you are not familiar with the program.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
So, building attachment is one of the four.
KIM:
Yeah. And that is Steve's chapter in the workbook. And there
are different rituals for that and different ways you can build
better rapport, become closer, and build a better connection.
The second
is limiting abuse.
The third
is about emotional intelligence, regulating and understanding
your emotions better and no longer letting your emotions
overwhelm you, but understanding the messages they are giving
you, and also learning not to use your emotions to try and have
power over other people.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
Not using your emotions to manipulate people.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
That your emotions are signals and signs for yourself, they are
not tools. And the fourth area—what’s the fourth area?
STEVE:
The fourth area is about learning to fill in your developmental
gaps, and that has to do with challenges as well.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
So nobody is perfect on this earth. We all have some area we
didn’t actually learn very well during our adolescence or our
youth or our early adulthood. At some stage you will find there
is some part of yourself—or more—that you didn’t actually learn
very well. You sort of skipped over it and that is what is
referred to as a gap—or a developmental gap.
KIM:
And that area can cause you a lot of stress.
STEVE:
And it can cause a lot of stress you don’t understand completely
because you are not really aware of it. It’s a gap, and
unfortunately a lot of people fill in their gaps with
confabulation—but that’s another story (laughing).
KIM: Or
blame (laughing).
STEVE:
Yeah, or blame.
KIM: So
this is important on the subject of narcissism, because these
gaps cause stress, they cause feelings of inadequacy, and this
can cause a person to develop a sense of false pride and become
haughty and arrogant to kind of compensate for those feelings of
inadequacy.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
Okay, so this is the area in challenging that most people feel
they have the most problem with, I have found.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
They don’t have too much problem with all the rest. They will
say, okay, the rest is all straightforward, but I just don’t
know how to challenge my partner. I don’t know how to get them
to do that, so this is an area that I think we have to get back
to the sorting this from that to actually sort this out.
Because in most cases, what I find is that challenging the
partner isn’t actually the problem at all. The problem is
actually limiting abuse and they haven’t realized it. Because
they think I don’t know how to challenge my partner because if I
do challenge my partner, they are going to lose their temper
with me.
STEVE:
Mmm.
KIM: Or
they are going to be angry with me. Or they are going to be
upset with me and I am going to need some kind of leverage, I am
going to need some kind of power over my partner if I want them
to change, if I want this challenge to work. Which I guess
doesn’t make it a challenge, so they are having problems with
the challenging—but you see it’s all getting mixed up again.
And these areas very often get mixed up—the limiting abuse area
and the challenging area. So what I would like to do is maybe
move the challenging area to part 2.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM: And
we will get toward—I know you want to talk a bit now—but we will
get toward limiting abuse in this show pretty soon. And let’s
just get those two areas really separated out.
STEVE:
That’s a really good idea because it can be confusing and let’s
just recap it. So if you are at the point where you feel you
need to challenge your partner to try and bring them closer or
to try and limit their abuse, and you fear that they will be
abusive in return—that can really set off some bad buttons and
it can probably stall the process.
KIM:
Mmm.
STEVE:
And we don’t want that to happen. So let’s put the challenging
aside for a moment, and what we are left with is abuse.
KIM:
Mmm. So where is an example of maybe where these two areas can
really easily get mixed up, Steve?
STEVE: Well, I think the most obvious one—this is coming
from a couple who deal with couples having trouble—is that
unpaid work can very easily turn into a form of abuse.
KIM: So
who is doing the lion’s share of the unpaid work.
STEVE:
Well, absolutely. There is a great book written back in the
1990s by an expert American-Australian author, called Susan
Maushart. She is an academic who studied and undertook a lot of
research. The book was called Wifework. And it was
funny because she changed the word “housework” to “wifework”
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE: It was kind of through her own experience and
through her research she had come to the conclusion that there
was this massive amount of unpaid work that had to get done. In
our modern society that we have created for ourselves, and it’s
usually the wife that has to do it. Now, 99 times out of 100,
that is the woman who is the wife. You know, sometimes the man
plays the wife role. But this unpaid workload has to be talked
about. And if somebody is being forced—or is being
neglected—enough to take on all of this stuff.
KIM: Or
just expected.
STEVE:
Yeah, yeah. There is a common expectation, exactly.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
Of previous generations when society was different. Where one
person would take all the responsibility for all of that unpaid
work.
KIM:
Yeah. And they are not really getting any compensation or even
respect for that.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
Yeah, so this can be an area where there is confusion.
STEVE: Absolutely.
KIM:
Where, hey yeah it is the two. Maybe this partner who doesn’t
carry their weight—this is a challenge. This is something that
was neglected in them being raised—and this is very
common.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
Where they weren’t taught about chores—chores weren’t expected
of them.
STEVE:
That’s right. We are talking about men mostly here, aren’t we?
Or women too?
KIM:
Ohhh, no. I know plenty of women who can fall into this
category, don’t worry!
STEVE:
Really? Okay.
KIM:
(laughing) I am not going to name names on air, but I think you
would agree.
STEVE:
Well, that’s a good idea. Right, okay. (laughing) But we are
talking about people that weren’t raised with that idea, and
pitching in and pulling your own weight.
KIM:
Was necessary and important.
STEVE:
Yeah, with the unpaid work in the household.
KIM:
And it’s also something that can form connections and bring
people closer. It doesn’t always have to be drudgery either.
STEVE:
Absolutely.
KIM:
Yeah. So this is an area where it can both be something that
perhaps their partner does need challenging on, and does need to
do some gap work on—but it’s also a form of abuse.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
And if a partner feels they can’t discuss this issue of how much
is being expected of them, or they can’t ask their partner for
help with some of this unpaid work—without their partner having
a tantrum or being intimidating or being cold, or just aloof or
in some way, breaking the connection with them and punishing
them for talking about this—well, first and foremost it’s
actually the abuse needs to be limited.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
Before you even look at the challenge of what is there. So I
mean all four areas do need to be dealt with at once and they do
overlap, but I think it’s important they get separated out. You
know, there are a lot of people who say I don’t have any problem
limiting abuse with my partner. There isn’t any problem at
all. I just don’t talk about anything. I just don’t bring up
anything that is controversial.
STEVE:
Well, that’s kind of like dodging abuse, isn’t it?
KIM:
Yeah. That’s not really you knowing how to limit abuse.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: So,
Steve, we will leave the challenges to Part 2.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
And that’s really important because learning how to choose
the challenges and knowing how to set those challenges is
something we get asked about all the time.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM:
And people really want more information on this. But I think we
have to deal with the limiting abuse area first. That is just
hitting the nail on the head in this aspect of power, the power
of love, what power is about, and how this is all working.
STEVE:
Sure. So a neat way to sum it up is that abuse is a misuse of
power.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
And I hope that is where we are going to take this conversation
from here, Kim, because I think that is a really important thing
we need to talk about. There is a power imbalance. Our show is
called “The Power of Love” and when we are talking about abuse,
we are talking about somebody’s misuse of their power.
KIM:
Yeah, absolutely. But I think even without making value
judgments, Steve, in getting into saying okay, what’s the
correct use and what ‘s the incorrect use, I could certainly
make my own moral evaluations on that. And yeah, I believe
there is good and bad use of power. But then that becomes very
difficult, doesn’t it, to say what is right and what is wrong.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM: I
mean, you get into that area with raising children. Is it right
to spank your children; is it not right to spank your children?
You know, the camp is extremely divided on both sides and each
side has really strong points of saying why they believe what
they do. I don’t want to get into any of that. I want to make
it clear here, Steve, that what we are talking about is what
works and what doesn’t work.
STEVE: Okay, what is practical.
KIM:
Yeah, what’s practical. What works and what doesn’t work. And
not only is abuse a misuse of power, but it’s not very
effective.
STEVE:
Absolutely. It doesn’t help anyone move forward, does it?
KIM:
No.
STEVE:
When you are abusing your power, you are misusing your power.
KIM:
Yeah. Did you feel more powerful and more in control of your
life when our relationship was abusive? And you were being
abusive toward me?
STEVE:
No! That was actually the closest our relationship was to being
a train wreck, wasn’t it?
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
That was really when things were just a complete disaster.
KIM:
Yeah. Really neither of us had any power at that point.
STEVE:
None. That’s right. We had like a Mexican standoff. Like “I’m
not going to do this!” It was horrible.
KIM:
Yeah. And we weren’t having any luck in reaching our goals.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: It
was really a disaster. So stepping back from the moral
judgments about it, there is that thing of what works and what
doesn’t work. So yes, there is a misuse of power that happens
with abuse. And this can be in a lot of different areas. it
can be in the ways that are more obvious like yelling at
somebody, screaming at somebody, intimidating somebody
physically or putting somebody down. But there are other more
subtle ways that this happens. You know, Steve, we have to get
to the positive first, don’t we? What is real power? Come on,
you tell us.
STEVE:
So the real power in the positive message of power, and the
power of love is all about connection, and it’s about quality of
connection with the people around you.
KIM:
Yeah. If you have a good, positive and strong connection with
somebody else, you are going to have influence with that
person. You are not going to have to threaten them, intimidate
them, or do a lot of yelling, screaming, and jumping up and down
or persuading or any of this stuff—you are just going to have to
ask.
STEVE:
That’s right. And you don’t have to go looking for power
games. And I think it was interesting when you were talking
before about the threats—-when you want someone to change,
change it with a threat. That’s just a power game. And it’s a
game that doesn’t work.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
So whenever you are reaching for that kind of threatening power
play, you really are sucking your connection away. You are
really not making yourself available for that other person.
KIM:
You’re just breaking the connection.
STEVE:
Yeah, you’re breaking the connection.
KIM: And
any time you do something that breaks the connection—with your
partner, with a friend, with a family member or with someone
else—you lessen your own personal power, but you lessen theirs
as well.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
Because the connection is lost. We will get back to that in a
minute because I want to talk more about those gray areas, that
seem to be the ones that often really trouble people the
most—where they know there is some kind of abusive behavior
going on, or something they don’t like in the relationship going
on, but they really just can’t put a finger on it. Well, should
we deal with that now? I can’t remember where I was going
anyway.
STEVE:
Sure. That’s okay.
KIM:
Because this happens. Those areas happen every time when the
connection is lost.
STEVE:
Okay.
KIM:
You know, it’s really just a matter of is there is a connection
happening/is there not a connection happening. I mean, I get
into this and I have been writing about this quite a lot on my
blog on the verbal abuse series I have been doing on the blog. I
will make sure there is a link to that on this radio show page
if people are interested, because it’s been very popular. It’s
where we talk about some of the different defenses people use
and defensive behavior.
- Link is
here
http://kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/verbal-abuse.html
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
Different people will behave in a lot of different ways when
they are feeling threatened or when they are feeling defensive.
But all of these are basically the ways people respond when they
feel they have lost a connection with someone.
STEVE:
Absolutely. And, Kim, that is very tangible. And I think if we
do our job on this radio show, Kim, we will get people to be
able to pick up on when that connection is broken. It can be
fast, and I don’t think a lot of people understand how quickly
you can regain the connection after it’s been severed. And you
shouldn’t really be too worried about that. It is about what we
are going to talk to you now about just trying to make that
connection viable again, but really you shouldn’t get put off
when it is disrupted.
KIM:
Because it’s the gentle things that are the most powerful.
STEVE:
Absolutely.
KIM: And
this is what we lose sight of and is sometimes the most
difficult thing for people to grasp about our message is—yes,
you do have to be able to limit abuse, you do have to be able to
come in and say I’m not happy about this. You know, say with
the unpaid work situation to be able to come in and say I can’t
do all of this. I can’t do what is being expected of me. I’ve
got other things in my life, other goals that I need to work on
as well, and there is too much being expected of me here and
this needs to be organized differently.
That is a
statement where someone is coming in and saying genuinely what
they need and where they are at, and talking to the other person
on the level.
STEVE:
Sure. So holding your own power.
KIM:
Yep, holding your own power.
STEVE:
Not giving it away.
KIM: Not
giving it away. Not saying, “You are making me terribly unhappy
because you are doing this to me”. This is giving your power
away. You know, thinking that your whole life is being
controlled by the other person who is not doing right by you.
STEVE:
Right.
KIM: And
as soon as you do that you give your power away and there can’t
be a connection.
STEVE:
Another example of giving your power away in that example where
you talked about when somebody needs to talk about how much
unpaid work they are doing, the worst thing you can say is, "OK,
hang on, you went to golf last week and the week before you had
this and the week before that"—you know?
KIM:
Yep, start blaming.
STEVE:
It’s a game. And it’s blame. And it’s giving your power away.
KIM:
And tit for tat.
STEVE:
It’s just giving your power away. Because all you are doing is
your are opening up an opportunity for there to be an argument
and no connection.
KIM:
And you are making the other person defensive.
STEVE:
Yeah, and you are making the other person defensive. So you
are not holding onto your power there. You need to bring up
these kinds of grievances when you feel powerful enough to talk
about it.
KIM:
Yeah. Less is more.
STEVE:
Absolutely.
KIM:
Less is definitely more. Now, I don’t want to give the wrong
idea here because some people are in situations where—and we
believe this is really about having teeth, this is not about
soft stuff. All the time we are talking about how to get the
police involved in helping them, how to get protection, how to
build a support network if that is necessary in their life—but
still when that is necessary it is really important that it
comes across not as a threat but that comes across as the person
in your life having to accept the natural consequences for their
behavior and you are actually stepping out of the way.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
And I’m ashamed to say things got to that stage with us.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
And I think you will remember that time, Steve, and it was very
much me saying I don’t know how to deal with this anymore, so I
am going to need to call in help. And it was not me saying you
do what I want you to or else.
STEVE:
That’s right. There’s a very distinct difference there.
KIM: In
actual fact, I kind of let the police do that.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
I mean, I was very clear with the police that I wanted them to
explain to you what the consequences were going to be if you
continued down that road of physical intimidation. And I was
very clear in sorting this from that. But I didn’t go and tell
them all about our bad marriage and carry on with them. I just
kept it very clear. You know, this is what has happened and
this is the help I need. But there is a really big difference
because I think people can misunderstand sometimes and think,
oh, Steve just got better because Kim became a bigger bully and
she just held it over him with the bullies. But I think in
actual fact there was a lot more humility in it than that.
Because at that point it was actually me stepping down from my
false pride and saying I don’t know how to deal with you. I
don’t know how to deal with this. I am really ashamed of the
fact that I am going to have to get the police and Social
Services involved in our relationship, but I don’t know how to
deal with this. This is way beyond me.
STEVE:
And I remember you making those points very clear. I do. I
remember you saying that.
KIM:
And actually being quite gentle with you, even, of saying,
honey, I’m sorry but I just don’t know what else to do.
STEVE: Absolutely. Sure.
KIM:
Because you are really scaring me.
STEVE:
That is a very accurate recollection you have. That’s how I
remember it as well. So your humility allowed a little bit of
my humility to come out as well.
KIM:
Well, I didn’t break the connection.
STEVE:
That’s right. Exactly.
KIM:
Where if I had stood over you and had tried to use that as a
threat, it wouldn’t have worked because you would have been
resentful.
STEVE:
It would have escalated then I think, into a fight.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
Into a war.
KIM:
Yeah. And this is where it’s so human of us to think that when
somebody isn’t listening to us, when somebody is not letting us
have any influence with them, when they are not listening to our
needs, when they are not modifying their behavior in ways maybe
they need to just give us space and to respect our boundaries,
to keep thinking we need to reach for a bigger weapon or a
bigger gun, when actually we need to put our weapons down.
STEVE:
Sure and build a connection.
KIM:
Yeah, because it’s actually much more powerful to just say what
it is you need and just leave it at that and give your partner
some time to think about that and just leave that hanging than
to actually threaten some consequences of what is going to
happen if they don’t do it. And it would seem the other way
around, that if there are some consequences—you know, “I want
some help with the housework or I’m going to leave you!”.
STEVE:
(laughing).
KIM:
That sounds more powerful than just, “I have some of my own
goals I need to work on. This isn’t working for me. I need
more help with the unpaid work and we need a solution.” At
first, it’s easy to believe the first is more powerful, but it’s
not.
STEVE:
Sure. And I think we should give credit to Susan Maushart, the
author I was talking about, because she really helped me see
housework was not just housework, but it’s just unpaid work.
And that’s really important for people to understand. And when
you are doing too much of it, you completely understand. It’s a
drudgery and you can get trapped in it and you can sink in
it—especially when you have a large family like we do, Kim.
KIM: Mmm.
STEVE:
I mean, I know when there are days when you are writing and I am
looking after the house, a whole day can disappear just with
unpaid housework—easily. And it doesn’t matter
how organized you think you can get yourself—entire days
can just get blotted out with unpaid work.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
And it’s not like getting ahead. It’s just on a bad day that’s
just how bad it can get no matter how well you are organized.
KIM:
And maybe that’s a talk you need to have with me soon.
(laughing)
STEVE:
(laughing)
KIM: I
help as much as I can, but you have become great like that, at
pitching in.
STEVE:
Yeah, well, there is a lot of unpaid work around here.
KIM:
And helping the kids pitch in.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
But, you know I think you feel a lot more powerful in that role
than back when you were resisting doing all of that.
STEVE:
I do. That’s right. Absolutely. I think I used to try and
avoid it as much as I could, and avoid it under the auspices of
having to go out and earn real money out in the real world and
avoid it that way. You know, it was more of a power game. And
in trying to get away from the unpaid work as well. Because a
lot of jobs I had were barely even covering costs anyway.
Especially as things have been tight here in Australia for the
last 10 years or so—you know wages have been held down and costs
are going up—so we have been caught in that cycle. It is really
important to have that conversation that there is some unpaid
work that needs to be done and it needs to be shared.
KIM:
Yep.
STEVE: So calling it housework can set off some bad bells
for guys, because they think they don’t have to do it. And I
think guys really feel that they do a lot of unpaid work as
well, which is not housework. I know guys used to work on their
cars. You know, you guys and girls out there know you don’t
have to work on your cars—you can’t work on your car
anymore. You know, I looked under the hood of our new car the
other day, Kim, and I didn’t recognize anything—only the
alternator looked the same from the old van we used to have.
KIM:
(laughing)
STEVE:
Everything else was different from the old van we used to have.
KIM:
I didn’t even know that you knew about cars. I’m surprised you
even know what an alternator is.
STEVE:
I know what an alternator is. I remember buying a new one and
trying to replace it and failing.
KIM:
Oh. (laughing)
STEVE: But I remember buying it so I know what it looks
like. And I know what it does.
KIM: It’s
great to hear how much you have to say about the unpaid work
situation, and I think that’s really important. We are working
on a new product we will tell you about soon that has a lot more
about that. Okay, so that’s an example but I wouldn’t want this
to get confused as this is the only place this is about, or
this is the only thing we are bringing up in this power
situation, because I would really like to leave people really
with a very tangible, real feeling for this and what this is
about. So quickly, Steve, could we just go over some of the
defensive behavior people display when you have lost a
connection with them or when they are feeling threatened.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
That really means the connection isn’t there and for you to keep
pushing. Because you mentioned the word escalating before.
This is when things tend to escalate is when you don’t recognize
that yourself, or your partner, has lost their center of power.
STEVE:
Yeah.
KIM:
And it can very easily throw you off. So let’s get right into
practical examples of this. You know, some people when they are
feeling threatened and they are feeling defensive and they have
lost their center of power become intimidating, become
threatening, become angry.
STEVE:
Yeah, they become very verbal, aggressive, loud.
KIM: The
become verbally abuse, aggressive and loud. They feel like they
have to talk people down. They have to use character
assassination to get back on top. There are other people that
become very verbal, but they become very needy.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
They become quite manic. They smoke too much and drink too much
and they want to sit up all night talking and talking and
talking. There are other people that just go glazed-eyed and
unfortunately it looks like they are aloof or they are arrogant
because their nose is in the air and their eyes are kind of
glazed.
STEVE:
Yeah, they are not responding.
KIM:
Stonewalling.
STEVE:
Yeah, stonewalling. They have sort of lost their connection.
They are pulling away in a very quiet manner.
KIM:
Yeah. But usually this person is actually just somewhere else.
They are scared. They are out the back of their head. They are
in some fantasy place or somewhere else.
STEVE:
Horrible. That’s horrible to deal with.
KIM:
Yeah, no point in trying to continue with some kind of
conversation or taking things anywhere with anyone who is in any
of these states. Because power can only actually be shared.
You can only have influence with somebody if you are out of
defense and you are in your own power and the person you are
talking to is as well.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: So
the fastest you can recognize this in yourself and recognize
this in other people and learn different ways of helping the
people around you feel safer, helping yourself feel safer,
helping bring yourself back—and that can really take some time.
And there is no shame in this. We all use these different kinds
of defense mechanisms.
STEVE:
Yeah, when we lose our attachment to one another.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
The other one is sulking.
KIM:
And the other one is sulking.
STEVE:
Which is the other really difficult one to deal with.
KIM:
Really difficult to deal with, and when people become very, very
negative.
STEVE:
Yeah, yeah.
KIM:
Very self-critical.
STEVE:
Yeah, negative. I was going to say that. Negative about
themselves as well.
KIM:
Very self-critical, put themselves down, beat themselves up, eat
too much, hurt themselves in different ways and sulk. That’s
another way.
STEVE:
Which is what people do when they don’t connect to other people,
isn’t it? It’s a really terrible switching off
mechanism—defense. It’s a weird one.
KIM:
There is another defense people use, which is where everything
is perfect and everything is orderly and it’s all happening as
it should and all the rules are being followed and everything is
fine—but you don’t really grasp that you are connected with that
person. There is still not a connection. You are not feeling
that person is really telling you the truth. You know, there is
the status quo that is being held.
STEVE:
That’s right—and as long as we hold that everything is fine.
KIM:
Yeah, but it doesn’t really actually have anything to do with
genuine intimacy or connection.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM:
And all these things are just things people do. And if they
have grown up in a household of people that are all in defense,
they fall into defense and it’s all you end up knowing. And it
can be hard to know the difference between when somebody is in
defense or when they are out of defense.
STEVE: That’s right. If you grew up in a house where there
hasn’t been those quality connections between people and between
a lot of people then yeah, what can become normal is something
that really isn’t healthy.
KIM:
Mmm.
STEVE:
And that can be true for a lot of people, unfortunately. It’s
very sad but it’s true. But learning what we are talking about
now is one of the steps to moving past that.
KIM:
So we are going to go, but let’s leave people with something
really practical, okay, Steve?
STEVE:
Okay.
KIM: So
this is just one little tool that I find really works. If I am
finding I am in defense, you become aware of which people put
you in defense.
STEVE:
Mmm-hmm.
KIM:
And different people will put you into different
defense.
STEVE:
Yeah, yeah.
KIM: For
some people, it will always make you angry.
STEVE:
Absolutely.
KIM:
And there are other people you always end up talking too much
and drinking too much when you are around them. And starting to
notice that and not so much blame yourself, but say is that
person holding their power or is that person in defense? Are
they in defense and that’s throwing me in defense? What is
going on here? What is happening here so I can prevent this
happening in the future so I can be more honest, I can be more
in my center. But then also getting yourself back to that
center of power and actually recognizing that’s not about
wielding something over anyone.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: I
mean, I love the image of world leaders. Whenever you see
pictures of world leaders, they are always standing side by side
with their hands behind their backs. That is a great stance of
being centered. That is a great position to take if you are
somewhere in public and you are feeling nervous—you are
fidgeting and don’t know what to do with your hands—put your
hands behind your back. You know, spread your feet slightly
apart, shoulder width apart, and just ground yourself. Just be
quiet for a while. Listen to what is happening around you. Get
back in your body. Be aware of your senses.
STEVE:
And this is some of the practical advice we want to give.
Because Kim and I are not psychologists or doctors, so we will
never try and delve into your past.
KIM:
No (laughing).
STEVE:
But we are saying really, honestly delve into the future—I mean
the present.
KIM:
Yeah, the present.
STEVE:
I’m sorry, not the future but the present. And trying to make a
better future.
KIM:
It’s about what you are doing right now.
STEVE:
Yeah, it’s about what’s happening right now. When you are in
the situations where you know somebody is going to produce a
particular result from you—either anger, aloof, fear, sulking,
whatever it is—
KIM:
And you’ve seen a pattern of that.
STEVE:
Yeah.
KIM:
Every time I get together with this person, this happens. Stop
thinking about that and think about why.
STEVE:
And that’s when your own power is going to be really your best
friend. Because you can say, I’m just going to observe this and
see what happens. I am not going to blame him or her. I am just
going to see what happens.
KIM:
Why do I react? And why do I always react in that way to this
person.
STEVE:
I am going to keep a solid connection open to this person, but I
am just going to keep an eye on it as well, just to see what is
happening.
KIM:
And then I want to end on this, Steve, because this is really
important.
STEVE:
Yep.
KIM:
Because you are not always going to figure that out verbally.
You are not always going to be able to figure that out with
words, talking about it, talking to somebody else about it.
It’s actually more about feeling it in your own body, I have
found.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
If somebody has put you into defense—and that can go on for
days—you know, you can have a meeting with somebody and be
thrown out—I’m sure everyone has experienced that—for a week, or
even a month after you feel out of sorts.
STEVE:
You feel rattled by it.
KIM:
Because you are rattled by some exchange that happened. A
really effective way of dealing with this, I find, that is
really simple is just to go lie down and feel in what part of
your body do you not feel relaxed. Is your heart fluttering?
Is your throat tense? Is there a pounding in your head? Is
there something in you that is shaky?
STEVE: Yeah, are your hands shaking?
KIM:
Are your hands shaking? And just really become aware of your
body. And actually ask that part of your body—I know this
sounds strange, but it really works—ask it what it wants. You
know, as if you were a little baby and you weren’t some big,
thinking brain, but what does this part of me want. And
sometimes will just be simple things. You need to wrap yourself
up and feel a bit warmer, and maybe relax for a little while.
STEVE:
You might need some sunshine.
KIM:
Yeah, you might need some sunshine.
STEVE:
You might need to take a bath.
KIM:
Yeah, or you might need more sleep than you have been getting.
STEVE:
You might need a little bit of quiet. You know, there are all
kinds of things.
KIM:
And you might just need to forgive yourself for what happened in
that exchange, of saying well that person throws me off balance
sometimes and I am sure it will come to me in time if I think
about it why. But get yourself re-centered, get yourself reset
on your own goals. Remember a time when you were happy and you
did fell centered and grounded and you felt good about yourself,
and decide you are going to feel that way again.
That that is how you want to be. Because by you being able to
faster and faster get back to your own center of power, that is
the fastest way you can help the others around you do the same.
STEVE:
And you will be influential.
KIM:
Because you will be keeping the connection.
STEVE:
Absolutely. And you will be powerful. And you will find more
power in that.
KIM:
Yeah, and I like the word you used—influence. No you had a
different word for power.
STEVE:
Yeah, influence. And I think that’s really important. If you
have two people in a situation where they are both in their own
power, there is a strong connection, and there is no crazy
standoff going on. It’s not like anyone is fearing one is going
to pull a rabbit out of the hat and cause a scene, when you are
at that point and there is a conflict, your power is in your
influence then to influence the best outcome for everybody. So
that kind of influence is a skill you need to develop. And it’s
not something that is really easy. You know, even getting to
the point where you are not losing it, getting to the point
where you are able to keep your own power is a skill itself.
But being able to take it further and to say okay, I am going to
be able to influence my family or my lover or whoever it is here
and we are going to come to an agreement he or she is going to
like as well. You know, sometimes you do need to influence the
people around you.
KIM:
Yeah, and it takes courage and it can hurt like hell to keep
your heart open like that when somebody is verbally abusing your
or you are in the middle of a fight, it takes courage, it takes
real courage. But it’s much more powerful in that situation if
you are able to say, “Hey, I’m really hurt by what you are
saying now and I need you to stop.” And that’s all you say.
Not threatening, not trying to have something you are wielding
over that person.
STEVE:
No confrontation.
KIM:
Because I reckon, Steve, what do you think—I reckon the real
power of love is about that influence. We want to influence and
inspire each other.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: And
when that connection is formed and we are influencing and
inspiring each other, really wonderful and magical things
happen.
STEVE:
You have influenced and inspired lots of good stuff in me, Kim.
(smiling)
KIM:
Thanks, Steve. (smiling)
STEVE:
We are going to need to wrap up now. Thanks to everyone at
Global Talk Radio for helping make this show come to air. We
will talk to you all next time on the Love Safety Net.
KIM:
Bye!
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