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LOVE SAFETY
NET
Transcript
of October 26, 2009, program
“Accountability”
STEVE: Hi everyone.
Welcome to the Love Safety Net.
KIM: I’m Kim.
STEVE: And I’m Steve. And
today’s show I’m in big trouble because it’s titled,
“Accountability”.
KIM: (laughing) Okay. So do
objects of money go missing in your house? Or are there big
gaps in time where your partner is missing and you are not
really sure of their whereabouts? Or just simple things like
they can never admit they are wrong, even about the smallest
mistakes. When trust and accountability go, some really hard
feelings can set in.
STEVE: Yeah, and I used to
be really guilty of all these things, I hate to say. And I will
talk about that a bit more in a moment. But first of all, Kim,
let’s talk a little about the new introductory specials and the
changes you have made to the web site in the past couple weeks.
KIM: Yes, well, we finally
got there (laughing). It’s been so much work for a solid two
months now, putting the new sales pages up and getting the new
sales page happening. All of our products are now available
hard copy, only on that introductory sales page, though,
because we haven’t actually got to where we have changed all our
other sales pages yet. So there are three introductory product
offers on our sales page. One, which is about getting your home
safe and is our basic package, which includes Back From the
Looking Glass, Love Safety Net Workbook, and
Understanding Love. The three of them packaged together
like that is at a very big discount. The second package is the
codependence package, which is my new pdf eBook, 10 Steps to
Overcoming Codependence, and that is packaged together with
Emotional Codependence to Self-Esteem. Now that is an
old audio product we have had for quite some time now—an old
favorite—but that has actually been completely remastered and
it’s a new edition. The script has been changed somewhat, and
we have made some new changes to that that we think really has
improved it.
STEVE: Mmm. It has
improved it.
KIM: And then the third
special offer is the narcissism special and that has Maturing
Beyond the Narcissistic Stage in Human Development—the audio
product, which again has been remastered. All three of the
recordings on this page have all been remastered and sound just
brilliant. Then there is The Little Book of Empathy and
there is Emotional Stupidity, which we felt were the
products most appropriate for someone wanting to overcome their
own narcissistic tendencies. So these are new products
packages, and they are also available in hard copy now, which is
something completely new.
STEVE: Well, the hard copy
is a pdf on CD, so it’s not actually a printed book. But it will
be a hard copy and not just downloads.
KIM: Yes, so you can
receive it in the mail if you were previously concerned about
not being able to download it onto your computer. The CDs are
obviously audio CDs. Also you can take those CDs into a print
shop and for less than $5 they will print that and bind that
into a printed book. Next stage is we are working on getting
the books printed, but one step at a time.
STEVE: Absolutely. One
step at a time.
KIM: (laughing) But what I
would really like to talk about, Steve, is Fightbusters.
Fightbusters.com is not a completely new site. It’s been there
for a little while but we have been so busy with everything else
we have been doing, I really haven’t had a chance to promote it
enough. It’s a free site. All of the information on there is
free. There is information there that if everybody in this
planet knew it would save families and save lives. There are 12
simple points on how to stop a domestic argument or fight that
is in progress. These are basic things, but they are
important. They re not things that necessarily come
instinctively, but when they read them, most people understand
and they have this sort of “aha moment” and they just sort of
go, “ahhhhh and ohhhhh”.
STEVE: (laughing) That’s
true.
KIM: And we really are
encouraging people to help us send that address to that page to
as many people as they can and to get the message out. Really
we need your help with PR and with publicity. Advertising costs
us an absolute fortune. It is very, very difficult reaching the
people who need this advice and help because domestic abuse just
doesn’t know any boundaries. It is right across the board in
every social class, every economic group, every race, and every
country.
STEVE: That’s right. And
the little email you have put together is really, really nice.
It is very touching and not very confrontational at all. It is
just very nice. It’s a really nice thing to pass onto people.
KIM: Yeah. What Steve is
talking about is I have put together a bit of a chain mail—you
know, those chain mails you get all over all the time—and I
promise this one is not threatening anybody with anything if
they don’t pass it on.
STEVE: (laughing) Or
promising anything.
KIM: (laughing) And you
won’t win the lottery if you do pass it on. It is just
information that we do believe will benefit people. So if you
are interested in seeing that chain email letter, which has some
pictures in it and it’s really quite a motive. It gives you a
good buzz and it ends on a happy ending.
STEVE: Yeah.
KIM: If you are interested
in seeing that because perhaps you would like to help us and
pass it on to your family and friends, if you can just simply
respond to the email that you got letting you know about this
show, and if you just hit reply and you just say, “Please send
me your chain mail letter”, and even if you just put that in the
subject line that is all you need to say and someone on our help
desk will make sure we get that sent to you. Because we won’t
send it out to everyone unless you request it.
STEVE: That’s right.
KIM: We don’t want to be
sending out stuff you haven’t asked for in that way, because it
is promotional, but it is promoting a free site with a lot of
very valuable information in it. And as it says in that chain
letter, if you send it out to everyone—because even people who
don’t need that advice probably know somebody who does.
STEVE: That’s right.
Absolutely. You will. Because domestic abuse and domestic
conflict is really common. Unfortunately, it flourishes under
the cover of darkness, and it has a big stigma to it, which is
why we need you to help us spread the word on something positive
about it.
KIM: Mmm. That noise in
the background—we have workman still working here. They are
painting the outside of the building.
STEVE: Yeah, they took two
days off and then decided to show up when we start recording our
radio show, Kim.
KIM: (laughing) Yes.
STEVE: Oh, well.
KIM: You might have to just
live with that if it gets louder. Sorry about that.
STEVE: Okay, so Kim, we
will try and ignore the painters and scaffolders (laughing), and
let’s talk about accountability.
KIM: Okay. So living with a
family member who won’t be held accountable can really be a
terrible problem from the smallest issues right through to
embezzlement, adultery, and addictions. Accountability, when it
comes to couples fighting, is really a hot topic. Today, we
want to give a clear idea of what you can do to try and solve
these problems.
STEVE: I know that this is a
topic of much discussion on the blog, Kim, and I guess since you
have been facing so many issues lately, Kim, on the radio shows,
it must be my turn to face this one.
KIM: Yeah, I have been
sort of talking a bit about my own problems in the last few
shows, haven’t I, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah, I’ve had a bit
of an easy time of it, I think.
KIM: Yeah, people are
starting to wonder if maybe it was me that was the problem all
along and not you.
STEVE: Oh, we can have an
argument about that later, Kim.
KIM: Mmm. Okay, well it’s
good you are going to face some of your stuff. But you know,
what I would like to hear you really talk about first is some of
the smaller stuff. Like what about how you used to never let us
get organized?
STEVE: Yeah, well I never
let you get the house organized. I would always be kind of
throwing a spanner in the works. I’d make piles of junk
everywhere.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: And, you know, I
would clean up by just getting a big box and throwing the mess
in the box and hiding the box.
KIM: (laughing) Yeah.
STEVE: And getting rid of
the box.
KIM: And then how many
boxes were there? Full of junk?
STEVE: Oh, it was
terrible. And it’s always so much harder going back through it,
isn’t it?
KIM: Oh, absolutely
dreadful.
STEVE: And I was hopeless at
it. And, Kim, you were always trying to say—and look, all you
out there who have kids know, especially young kids, just how
difficult it is to keep on top of the house when you have little
kids running around tearing it up. So you are under a lot of
pressure just so you don’t do your own head in, just trying to
keep on top of things. You know, bathe and feed yourself and
try and relax and stuff. But then I was coming in and not
helping with the domestic routine at all. I was actually doing
the opposite; ruining any routine. Any routine you would try
and start, I would come in and just ignore or sabotage.
KIM: And it was a real
power struggle. It was like you were not going to let me decide
where anything went. And you weren’t going to decide either.
So if I said, this is the tea towel drawer, and this is the—I
mean that’s how bad it was. We didn’t even have a drawer for
anything. Well, I had it all sorted out so I thought I knew
where everything went. But in absolutely no time at all, every
single drawer in the house would just be a junk drawer.
STEVE: That’s right
(laughing). Miscellaneous junk.
KIM: Yeah, miscellaneous
stuff in every drawer and I laugh about it now, but it used to
just make me pull my hair out and nearly cry in despair. And I
think that served a couple purposes, didn’t it? Because on the
one hand it meant that we all needed you.
STEVE: Yep.
KIM: Because you were the
only one who knew where everything was, because miraculously
somehow you usually did!
STEVE: Yeah (laughing).
KIM: He put things in the
most random places, but in your head you actually knew where
everything was.
STEVE: Yeah.
KIM: And so we were just
completely reliant on you.
STEVE: It’s really
embarrassing looking back on it now.
KIM: (laughing) Come on, we
have been dealing with my stuff lately. You can handle it.
STEVE: Yeah, that’s true.
Yeah, it was really just distracting for you, wasn’t it? Massive
disruption for you. And this was going on when we had younger
kids, so it was really hard keeping on top of it. An average
day was a struggle.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: So not being able to
put your hand on something you need straight away was a real
headache and caused a lot of tension.
KIM: Yeah. So in a
little while, toward the end of the show, we will get more into
how we changed that. Because our house is beautifully organized
now, and I think you enjoy it being that way much better.
STEVE: I do. Absolutely.
KIM: And with everyone
being able to find stuff, not just you.
STEVE: Yeah, it’s much
better.
KIM: But these small
issues, these small little things, they often become the
fighting point, don’t they?
STEVE: Yeah.
KIM: Where the bigger
issues don’t get dealt with. I mean, talking about my
family—and I won’t get too personal—but I know my mom and dad
just fought about the same things for years and it was the
stupidest little thing.
STEVE: What was it?
KIM: Oh, I won’t tell.
STEVE: That’s fine.
Don’t tell.
KIM: But it was only in the
last year or so my mom told me how embarrassed she was about
that. And she actually admitted to me that she was wrong.
STEVE: Right.
KIM: I mean, dad’s gone
now. And she felt very bad about it, and it was such a small
little thing. I think it was symbolic of something much bigger
in their relationship. My guess would be I don’t think my mom
really understood my dad’s politics and not understanding it I
don’t think she had a lot of respect for his politics either.
And her idea was that he was just stupid for believing what he
did. Maybe I am just guessing, but I am thinking that was a
little more that was beneath it. And these small things—I mean
you see it all the time where couples just start fighting about
these smallest little things and they are just petty and they go
on and on and on.
What would be an example of
it? I can’t remember some of the small things we used to fight
about. We fought about big things. We fought about
everything!
STEVE: (laughing)
KIM: But I have never been
much for triviality, but you do see these couples fighting. So
for an example, let’s just say I go to the fridge because I
decide I want some peanut butter and the peanut butter has all
been eaten. And I say to you did you finish the peanut butter?
And you say no.
STEVE: No.
KIM: Is that a good
example?
STEVE: I think that’s a
good example.
KIM: So the peanut butter
is gone. And we will say at this stage none of the kids could
reach the peanut butter in the fridge because they are all
little, and the peanut butter jar is in the bin and so I
absolutely know that you have eaten the peanut
butter, but you are saying that you didn’t.
STEVE: Right, okay.
KIM: This is just an
example of little things. And then a fight will start about
that.
STEVE: So, a lot of things
can get dragged in here. Like, okay, he’s lying to me.
KIM: Mmm. And why is he
lying? There is no reason. I wasn’t being aggressive when I
said, ‘did you finish the peanut butter?’ it was just a really
simple question.
STEVE: Sure. But then in
that situation I have been really defensive and said ‘no’, not
being able to say, ‘yeah, I ate the rest of the peanut butter,
did I?’ I just say ‘no, it wasn’t me. It must have been
someone else.’
KIM: So these little things
can really turn into huge fights and arguments. In that case,
maybe it might have been symbolic that I was really scared about
other things that you were lying to me about.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM: And about how you
just instantly were so defensive. But it sort of made me feel
really uneasy and think why did you have to lie about that?
STEVE: Yeah, it’s an
illustration of the defensiveness you are talking about there.
Which gives cause for lots of stress. And look, I had much
bigger things I was hiding from you than scissors or peanut
butter.
KIM: (laughing) Yeah. I
mean, peanut butter we just made up. But back then you were
hiding a lot of stuff. I mean, hiding in terms of not letting
us find stuff around the house—the scissors and the household
bits and pieces, but it was symbolic of bigger stuff, wasn’t
it?
STEVE: That’s right. Those
were just small arenas of the battle. But the other was I had
credit cards that I was hiding from you.
KIM: Yep.
STEVE: And I had a
pornography addiction that I was hiding from you.
KIM: Yep.
STEVE: And I had this
private world and I had an alcohol addiction that I wasn’t
admitting to either.
KIM: Yep.
STEVE: I was drinking more
than I admitted to be drinking.
KIM: Yeah, and drinking
secretly.
STEVE: And drinking
secretly. And financing it with the credit cards.
KIM: Yeah. And financing a
few other kind of luxury indulgences.
STEVE: Yeah, the other
indulgences.
KIM: With three young
kids and bills we couldn’t pay it really wasn’t right for you to
be doing.
STEVE: Yeah, it wasn’t
appropriate at all. I had a lot of shame about that, but I was
hiding it. So just like the peanut butter I wasn’t admitting to
being wrong. I wasn’t admitting I had made a mistake. So I
just had to continue to cause a stir on any level to protect the
secrets that I had.
KIM: Yeah. So keeping
everything disorganized in a way actually was just your way of
putting up a smoke screen.
STEVE: Absolutely any
little disturbance I could initiate would therefore render no
time for anything else to occur or for any other broader
exploration of where our money was going, what I was doing with
my time, and all that I was afraid to have you confront me with.
KIM: But this also just
left me and the kids so our lives could just never get off the
ground at all.
STEVE: So it was really
oppressive, wasn’t it?
KIM: Yeah, it was really
oppressive. We couldn’t even get the drawers in the house
organized, let alone any kind of foundation built for us to have
a life. And you weren’t aware of the kids’ needs and you
weren’t aware of what was going on in the kid’s lives because so
much energy was just going into you putting up this smoke screen
and hiding your vices.
STEVE: That’s right.
KIM: And I think this is
a lot more common than people realize. I mean, in this show we
talk about narcissism and we talk about codependence. But as I
have said before and I will continue to say I don’t think it’s
really that necessary that you have a partner that is diagnosed
with one of these disorders or you are for you to benefit from
our ideas and from the information we provide.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM: I think many couples,
particularly if there is chronic fighting going on, do have
these kinds of tendencies. And we have also said before the
tendencies can also swap. Some people become quite narcissistic
when they have been drinking.
STEVE: Sure. Or when they
are under pressure.
KIM: Yeah, like when they
are under extreme pressure or they have some sort of really
unrealistic expectation put on them, they will start behaving
that way. So these are just sort of things that a lot of us
will do. And I think most of us are guilty at some stage in our
life of hiding some kind of a secret from someone else.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM: And the kind of
patterns of behavior you will fall into when that happens.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM: Okay. But so this is
really not easy to overcome though, if you are the partner of
somebody who is doing this.
STEVE: Well, it was really
tough for you, I know.
KIM: Oh, it was harrowing.
Once you discovered everything that was going on.
STEVE: I kind of really felt
for you. Because you were really surprised.
KIM: That was really
tough. And it is never nice finding out your partner has been
lying to you and hiding stuff from you. Particularly when you
also usually find out they have been blaming you for it.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM: You know, you had to
make me out to be this sort of nightmare to justify the stuff
you were doing. And I think that was also not as hard as what
happened before that. I mean, what happened before that when I
didn’t know what was going on, and I really wasn’t sure why you
were acting the way that you did, and I really didn’t know what
to do about it. And every attempt I made to get our life
organized and to try and just get started just didn’t work. I
just would fall flat back on my face again. I mean, I remember
going to a job interview that I really, really wanted and that
we really needed, and you showed up downstairs absolutely
filthy, in this filthy old t-shirt with your hair a mess with a
child on each hip saying, ‘oh, here is your wallet’. And you
did that completely to embarrass me and to mean that there was
just no hope of me getting that job and to make it look like I
was just some horrible mother that was abandoning you guys at
home. And that was just really horrifying for me.
But anyway, you do need a good
plan if you are going to solve this. Because it’s not just one
tactic you are going to be able to use to overcome it if your
partner has problems with accountability. So I’ve got a short
list, Steve, and if you are out there get a pen and a bit of
paper.
STEVE: Yep. You’ve got
about 15 seconds.
KIM: (laughing) Because
this isn’t in any of our eBooks. The ideas and the principals
are there, but this is a new list.
STEVE: So what is #1.
KIM: Okay:
-
You need to find out the truth.
STEVE: Yeah, absolutely.
KIM: We will go into these
in detail, but I will just give you the list:
-
You need to find out the truth. You are
better to be out of the dark.
-
You need to let your partner face the
music.
STEVE: So any consequences.
KIM: Yeah, of their actions
they need to face that themselves.
STEVE: Don’t protect them
from the natural consequences.
KIM: Yeah, don’t protect
them from the natural consequences. That’s right.
-
Choose your battles [and plan on winning the
big ones!].
STEVE: Mmm. That’s good
advice, Kim. (laughing)
KIM: (laughing) Yeah. Very,
very important. We will get more into this in a minute. I guess
that’s like what I was saying before about not getting
distracted by the small stuff. The small stuff can turn into
huge arguments, but it doesn’t really work in your favor.
STEVE: Absolutely. And
they are always going to be a distraction at best.
KIM: Absolutely.
-
Similar to #3, and that is let the small
stuff go. What do they say in cricket? Let it go through
to the keeper?
STEVE: That’s right, let it
go to the keeper. You don’t have to play it.
KIM: You don’t have to play
every ball.
STEVE: That’s right.
KIM:
-
Model better behavior.
STEVE: Absolutely.
KIM: That’s extremely
important. If you are unable to admit that you are wrong, or
that you have made a mistake, how is your partner every going
to?
STEVE: Absolutely.
KIM: So we will start on
that one first. Let’s talk about that one for a minute, shall
we?
STEVE: Okay.
KIM: Because it goes both
ways. But on the other hand, when you need to admit when you
are wrong and apologize, which is very hard to do.
STEVE: For sure.
KIM: And I think most
people find it hard to do. It’s especially hard to admit that
you are embarrassed.
STEVE: Oh, for sure. And
you know like in my situation where I had done quite a bit of
financial damage and ruined your trust in me as well, that is
really hard to face.
KIM: Yeah. Embarrassing.
STEVE: But it has to be done
nonetheless, because you can’t keep pushing it under the
carpet.
KIM: But you being honest
about it and admitting that you are embarrassed, really when you
do that with other people it really usually is quite endearing.
STEVE: Absolutely. It
builds trust. It builds a new kind of confidence. Even though
there is always going to be the emotional recoil from finding a
secret is being kept from you, for sure. But it’s going to make
way for something new. It’s endearing, right. But also once I
am over this we can start rebuilding something else—perhaps
something better—and learn from the mistake that perhaps has
been made.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: You know, trusting
when you shouldn’t have, giving too much leeway when you
shouldn’t have, not challenging your partner—there is a whole
list of things we could go into there.
KIM: But I think at the same
time on this point, where it’s good to be able to admit you are
wrong and show that kind of humility, and it is important to
model that behavior for your partner so they see—even that
becomes a bit of a challenge. If you show you are able to do
that, and you can do that in a way that shows some valor and
shows some humility and shows that you are on a bit of a higher
ground than them, I think that’s positive. But this doesn’t
include you apologizing too much or apologizing all the
time—particularly if you haven’t done anything wrong.
STEVE: Oh, absolutely.
KIM: That’s just so
annoying.
STEVE: Well, that’s bad
behavior.
KIM: And it’s provocative.
STEVE: Yeah, it is.
KIM: Because if you are
always apologizing and acting sort of scared and like you are a
victim when nobody is attacking you, nobody has done anything,
and you haven’t done anything and you haven’t got anything to
apologize for. I know a lot of people have that as a bit of a
habit. If you do catch yourself doing that, I think it is
really important that you stop and have a hard look at yourself
with that and decide you are going to stop doing that.
STEVE: It’s just a bad
habit that can be broken.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: It really is a bad
habit. And it does upset people when you apologize too often or
inappropriately.
KIM: Yeah, when you haven’t
actually done anything wrong.
STEVE: It’s a bit of an
Australian habit, Kim. I have noticed that a lot of Australian
people do that.
KIM: Mmm. So back to the
top of the list.
STEVE: Okay, so Kim, the
top of the list was finding out the truth. Finding out the
truth is so important. I actually would love Kim to get a
private investigator on the program one day on the Love Safety
Net Radio Show.
KIM: Yeah, you told me about
that idea for a radio show.
STEVE: Yeah. And have them
give a few pointers, if he or she was willing to give up a few
ideas. Because, you know, you have to find out the truth. It’s
not always easy. It’s a busy world we live in and there isn’t
always time. And goodness knows we can’t afford DNA tests and
all that, you know.
KIM: Yeah. For sure. And
you are really better to be out of the dark. You really need to
be. There are people we know that I met some years ago. And
that was just really so tragic. She found out her husband had
actually gambled their whole house and both of the cars away.
And she had no idea that he had mortgaged everything.
STEVE: That’s a horrible
story. I remember that.
KIM: And he just seemed like
this really nice guy.
STEVE: Yeah.
KIM: And she had no
idea. She was out at work and he was gambling every day. It
was all just gone. And that’s the thing. As easy as it is to
keep ourselves in the dark, you really are much better off out
of the dark. And as painful as getting out of the dark can be,
it really does put you in a safer situation.
STEVE: Absolutely.
KIM: But you do have to be
careful as well. If you are going to start investigating your
partner and you have suspicions about what they are up to, be
careful because you might not know how deep you are getting
yourself in.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM: And you are probably
better to have someone like an investigator or someone else at
least know the worst of your suspicions.
STEVE: And really be
careful. Because if you know your partner is doing something
illegal, it’s maybe not a good idea for you to be doing the
snooping.
KIM: No.
STEVE: You’ve got to be
really careful. But I mean, if you suspect your partner of
gambling too much, or perhaps having an affair, absolutely. You
have a right to find out what is going on.
KIM: Well, for yourself.
Just so you are clear so you know one way or the other. And if
they challenge you on it, just say it’s the only way I could be
sure. I would have been happy to find out my suspicions were
wrong. And this doesn’t mean necessarily that you have to go
following people around or putting yourself in dangerous
situations either. I think most people stay in the dark because
they keep themselves in the dark. When I decided I wanted to
get out of the dark, it really wasn’t that difficult to figure
out what I needed to do.
STEVE: Sure.
KIM: And in our case, I
just got myself into the bank. I mean, you have to be very, very
careful about how you handle these situations, though. I mean,
when I went to the bank I asked if I could speak to one of the
women there in private. I was careful choosing who I spoke to
and who I asked. I tried to choose someone who looked kind. I
didn’t go in angry at you because that wouldn’t have helped me.
I went in there very calm and level-headed and I said,
‘Unfortunately I do have some suspicions and I don’t know
everything about where the money is going with my husband and I
am not really good with that. And can you help me? Because
really me and the kids it’s really getting pretty dire and I
really need to know more about what is going on and the money
trail.” And she was just great. She helped me sit down and go
through the whole thing. Soon, a lot more started to become
clear. There were large amounts of money disappearing
somewhere, and it didn’t take me too much longer to find out
where they were going. So yeah, I think you have to really face
that and say, ‘I’d rather be out of the dark’. But for goodness
sake, make sure that you read our eBooks first. I mean, it is
the smallest investment to make. I just wish I had the
information I am providing people with now back then. Because
if you find out your partner is lying to you or cheating on you,
it is really going to rock your world in a bad way . It is
really going to be hard to deal with. It can really create a
lot of fights, a lot of tension, and a lot of trouble.
STEVE: And you can easily
marginalize yourself too, if you don’t handle it well. You
know, you can become very vulnerable. If you find out there are
some big secrets and you don’t handle it very well, you can very
easily become very vulnerable and become a double victim. And
really Kim’s books are all about preparing you with the right
set of skills to be able to efficiently and effectively knock
out all the small little things we have been talking about and
really start focusing on repairing he damage as best you can,
wherever that takes you.
KIM: Yeah. And you’ve got
to be really careful about this. You have to play to win. And
I’m not saying play to win as if you are playing against your
partner. But if you want a happy, secure marriage where there
is trust between you, you need to play to win. You need to
decide okay, this isn’t going to go any further. I am not going
to tolerate this. I am not going to protect my partner from the
consequence of these actions, which gets onto the next point.
And you have to be really grounded and you have to have a really
solid plan of action. And you need to know the skills you are
going to need to pull in support from the people around you,
because if you are just going to go in crying and hysterical,
pointing the finger and making accusations and think everyone
else is going to feel as outraged as you, you are just wrong.
People have busy lives and they have their own problems. And
they don’t have time for people who are over emotional.
STEVE: Absolutely. No
matter how hard it hurts.
KIM: And you have to be
ready to deal with this, and as I said, play to win.
STEVE: So Kim, you alluded
to the next point, and that was making your partner face the
music, if there is anything they need to face. The natural
consequence of their actions.
KIM: Yeah. Absolutely.
With the woman we were talking about before with the husband who
gambled everything away. I mean, she needed some really serious
help, not help I could give her. But she needed to get straight
onto the gambling line and talk to her accountant and some legal
people. You know, she was all just concerned about whether she
was going to divorce him or not and quite frankly at that stage
I said I think that’s the least of your issues. You can figure
that out later, because you have some more serious problems than
that. For your own security.
STEVE: Yeah. There was a
massive boundary being stepped over.
KIM: Yeah, for your own
security and for your children’s own security.
STEVE: Exactly.
KIM: She needed some really
heavy duty legal advice, and to make sure that’s from somebody
that you can trust and not somebody who is just going to fleece
her for anything she’s got left.
STEVE: So that’s like you
said before about staying calm and finding the right advice you
need. Don’t go off when you are too vulnerable because you can
be taken advantage of again.
KIM: Yes, finding out what
she’s got left. Getting his name off stuff so he can’t mortgage
anything else. Finding out what legal recourse she has for what
he’s done. And making him face the music. Absolutely. Because
people don’t learn. If you are going to keep protecting your
partner from the consequences of their actions, you just can’t
do that. In the case of domestic violence, if your partner is
physically abusing your or is hurting you and their pride is
that big that if they are questioned on anything it comes to
violence, you can’t protect them from that. It has to stop.
STEVE: That’s right.
KIM: And if they have to go
to jail for that to stop, then so be it.
STEVE: Yeah, that’s not
really your decision, that’s part of the law.
KIM: But you are going to
have to keep your wits about you. And you are going to have to
think really long and hard about who you are going to ask for
help, who you are going to tell, how you are going to deal with
it. Because I know for a fact there are many police officers
out there that they will just say we don’t need to get involved
in a domestic dispute—this is none of our business. And they
will just turn a blind eye to it. And that’s because they may
not know the full story. But unfortunately I have seen it all
the time and they have doctors who won’t provide evidence. They
won’t write things up properly. So you really do have to be
careful because you can’t just assume that the first person you
talk to is going to help you. And you particularly can’t assume
that if you’re upset and if you are overemotional and if you
wait for trouble before you call for help, because particularly
if you are dealing with any family with violence. If that has
been a problem in the past, it is going to continue. And you
don’t have to wait until there is trouble again to start getting
help. You need to be looking for help when you are calm and
putting that together very carefully, forming a plan with some
intention.
STEVE: So this has gone
into choosing your battles. So #3 and #4 is about choosing your
battles and letting the small stuff go. Don’t let the
narcissistic type in your relationship draw you into making too
much of a fuss about things that don’t matter, because they will
just use that against you.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: That’s the game I
was playing—you know with the peanut butter story earlier?
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: And you know it
really is. We talk a lot about narcissistic people the major
problems they cause in their life, but there are little small
fights they will start, small grass fires, that really can be
the worst part of the experience for you if you are not prepared
for that.
KIM: Yeah. And it will
work against you, letting them make fights about those little
things.
STEVE: Exactly. And the
last thing a narcissistic person wants is for you to let those
little grass fires burn out.
KIM: Yeah, or just let
them go.
STEVE: And just let them
go. Because that’s not the game.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: The game is to start
a little grass fire, make it into something big, provide a big
smoke screen and an excuse to run out the door, leave, blame you
for it.
KIM: Or say, ‘Oh, look at
the big deal she made about the peanut butter’.
STEVE: Yeah, exactly.
She’s just nuts, you know. She accused me of eating the last of
the peanut butter. She’s going crazy.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: So they are little,
tiny battles that—think about it. Look at the bigger battle
field. Look at it. Are you going to let those little grass
fires soak up all your energy? Soak up all your defenses? Soak
up all your time, effort, energy, thinking?
KIM: Yeah. And you just
being able to let them go is actually going to be able to put
your partner on their toes a lot more. I mean, take the same
situation with the peanut butter.
STEVE: Mmm-hmm.
KIM: If I had asked, ‘Did
you finish the peanut butter?’ and you say, ‘No.’ But then if
I would say, ‘Oh, okay then’, and then just go on with my day,
then you are left going, ‘okay, she knows I did but she didn’t
fight me on it. What else does she know?’
STEVE: Absolutely. It
changes the whole energy, doesn’t it?
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: And it’s a forward
defense—another cricket analogy. It’s a forward defense. It’s
front foot, you know? It’s sort of a defensive aggression, I
guess. (laughing)
KIM: No, it’s not
aggression. It’s being proactive.
STEVE: Yeah, but it’s
forward. If you don’t understand cricket, you won’t understand
that.
KIM: No, nobody understands
cricket.
STEVE: I know.
KIM: Except for you.
STEVE: It’s a wonderful
allegory for this situation, but I have to whip it up into
something else at a later time.
KIM: Well, let’s get on
to the next point. I think we have said enough about that—I
hope we have. You know, don’t get sucked into the smaller
arguments. Just really decide to choose your battles and decide
you are going to win the big ones. Because the big ones are the
ones that matter.
STEVE: Absolutely.
KIM: Because you don’t want
to be fighting about peanut butter when really he has credit
cards you don’t know about and he is sending you both broke.
STEVE: That’s it.
KIM: You know, the credit
cards are what matter, not the peanut butter.
STEVE: That’s it. It’s
starting to get incredibly noisy out there, Kim, so should we
just do the last point.
KIM: Oh, no it’s all right.
We will just keep going.
STEVE: Yeah. The last
point: modeling better behavior.
KIM: Yeah, which is very,
very important. You need to be a good example.
STEVE: So being able to let
little battles go is just setting a good example.
KIM: Being able to admit
when you are wrong. And do it gracefully.
STEVE: Fantastic.
KIM: Being able to admit
when you are embarrassed about being wrong, is even harder.
STEVE: You know, that’s good
you pick up on people who have done that well in the past. And
I have a few examples in my head of people who have done that
really well. And have been able to admit they were wrong.
KIM: And you usually
remember it. And you really love that person.
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah. And
it’s a great example and you can use it, because it is part of a
bigger solution.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: And it is part of
getting onto the road of figuring out how to win the bigger
battle, or how to uncomplicated the bigger problem.
KIM: Mmm. But I mean, we
were talking about this before the show. And I think it’s also
important to understand that different cultures of people that
come from different places do have different ideas about this.
I mean, there is Malcolm Gladwell’s amazing book Outliers.
He talks about the ‘culture of honor’ in that book and people
who were descended from people who were shepherds often have
this thing called a ‘culture of honor’. Which means that if
someone calls them a name or if somebody challenges their
masculinity—
STEVE: Yeah, or challenges
them personally.
KIM: Or challenges them
personally in some way, it’s a matter of honor that they
actually retaliate.
STEVE: Yeah, that some
retribution must be enforced.
KIM: And this really just
depends on where people come from.
STEVE: Well, in a great
book called Outliers and he identifies some of the
mountainous regions in Europe anyway: the Scottish Highlands,
parts of Northern Ireland, the mountains in Spain, and Sicily in
Italy, Greece, and the Caucasus Mountains, where some of my
relatives are from.
KIM: And then the
Appalachians in The States.
STEVE: Yeah, and the
Appalachians in The States. But he said it was interesting
because when he looked back at a lot of the early migration days
into the Appalachians in The States in areas in Kentucky and
various areas in The South there, that they were part of the
shepherd stock living in marginal areas. You know, not the big
plains, not big farming lands and little farming hamlets and
villages, which different parts of Europe were like that as
well. He was talking about the real marginal kind of
earth—mountainous, difficult to farm, more conducive to herding
stock and goats and pigs.
KIM: Mmm. And people can
come and steal your stock in the middle of the night, which they
can’t do if you have a crop.
STEVE: That’s right. And
that’s the point he was making in his book. He said when you
are a shepherd you are sleeping with one eye open all the time.
And people do come and steal your food.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Particularly back
when he was talking about in the pioneer days. And back in the
days before civilization is what it is now.
KIM: And sometimes you
would be required to fight them.
STEVE: That’s right. And
part of your job description of being a shepherd and part of
your job description of being a person back then was being able
to fight. To be able to protect your herd, protect your
family. And that was the idea of the culture of honor. To be
ultra protective and make the family higher than anything else,
your most important priority. And this culture of honor sort of
developed from that. And it got passed down through the
generations. We really encourage you to get the book. We don’t
have time to go into it, but he had some experiments where
people from that kind of background still have that very
defensive knee jerk “ready to fight”, even if it was something
personal or something physical it doesn’t matter. Even if it
was a storm in a teacup perhaps.
KIM: If they feel
challenged.
STEVE: Yeah, if they feel
in some way challenged they are ready to fight. And some of us
have that kind of background.
KIM: I know you really
identified with that.
STEVE: Yeah, I do.
(laughing)
KIM: (laughing) And myself
somewhat too. And I think what is important is that we do learn
this behavior from example. It is passed down from generation
to generation. It is only going to change in your family if
somebody makes a decision to change it, because it really isn’t
in our best interest and most of us aren’t needing to defend
livestock that might be stolen by rustlers anymore.
STEVE: That’s right.
(laughing)
KIM: So it’s not really in
our best interest to be over defensive and ready to use violence
if necessary to defend ourselves isn’t necessarily in our best
interest. And so again we mentioned this last show a little bit
but about scaffolding. You may never be able to get past that
feeling. I know, Steve, you still get your back up when I
question you about anything.
STEVE: I do! I still get
that rush of blood to the head.
KIM: You know, I can’t
question you about anything without seeing you go, ‘how dare you
question me’.
STEVE: I always seem to
think you are being confrontational.
KIM: Yeah, even when I am
not.
STEVE: That’s just how I
read it. I’ll think, “why is she confronting me like this?”.
KIM: Yeah.
STEVE: So please go on
about scaffolding.
KIM: Well, as you have now
seen that: You are going to be held accountable and there isn’t
any smoke screen here. You are just going to have to face the
music. And I am not going to get all upset about it. I am just
going to call the accountant, talk to the bank, or whatever, and
you are going to be left with egg on your face looking
embarrassed. As I have also modeled better behavior myself, as
I have been less prepared to let you drag me into the small
fights, I have seen and you have made a conscious decision is
that even though you still have that initial reaction, the
secondary reaction has also become automatic. So first your
hairs raise on the back of your neck. And I see it. But then
I also see you make a decision to let go of it, where you go, no
that’s silly. I don’t need to do that.
STEVE: And also something I
used to do is I would let the hairs rise on the back of my neck
and the blood would rush to my head. Sometimes I would cool off
for a minute, but then sometimes I would say something sarcastic
in response.
KIM: Mmm.
STEVE: And that would
always pick a fight as well. And I am still learning. Because
okay I’m not going to fight, I am not going to swing my arms,
but I am going to be vicious with my tongue now.
KIM: Ohhh.
STEVE: And absolutely very
guilty of that. It happened the other day, Kim. I was really,
really angry about something. I can’t remember now what it was,
because it didn’t really matter. We sorted it out pretty
quickly. But still there was that tendency. So guys in
particular, if you can really get the idea of scaffolding down,
do just try and let that first rush of the blood go past. That
second reaction you have, make sure it’s a good one, make sure
it’s a decent one, make sure it allows other people to be who
they are. Make sure it allows some civility to continue.
KIM: And practice making
that scaffolding your habitual secondary reaction so when it
happens you think, okay here is a great time to practice this.
But I do need to say just
quickly—I know you are winding up here, give us another two
minutes, okay? Because I know we will have time for this, and
it’s important.
STEVE: Yes, ma'am.
KIM: First thing is that
you wouldn’t have made those changes unless I was holding you
accountable, isn’t that true?
STEVE: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
KIM: You didn’t make these
changes because you were a great guy and you decided to look at
yourself.
STEVE: Absolutely.
KIM: Because I don’t care
how much of a culture of honor your partner may have come from,
they still do make conscious decisions of who they are going to
act this out with and who they are not.
STEVE: Absolutely.
KIM: They might get really
annoyed with some big guy who calls them a name in a bar, but
they are not going to talk back to him.
STEVE: No, that’s right.
KIM: In that situation,
they will decide, ‘no, I’m going to let it go’. So they make
the decision of when they are going to let it go and when they
are not going to let it go. And you not letting them put up a
smoke screen with the smaller fights by you starting to make
them face the music and let them be accountable with other
people, slowly your partner is going to start realizing that you
are not the right person to take on.
STEVE: Yeah.
KIM: And they actually need
to look and go, ‘nope, I’m just going to let that go’.
STEVE: So Kim’s eBook
Back From the Looking Glass is really about getting prepared
for that. In getting accountability, the structure of that
accountability intact.
KIM: Yes, absolutely, getting
that intact. And secondly, we just have to briefly touch on
this before we go is next week we have a guest on the show,
Steve.
STEVE: We do. Dr. Maria
Rodowski and we are going to be talking to her about some of the
attachment theories we have talked about on previous shows. She
has a lot of great research she has been able to draw on through
her work. She is also a parent, so we have a lot of stories to
relate to each other and we are really looking forward to it.
KIM: And that will be the
last show, because we are going to have a break for two or even
possibly three months. It is summer here and we have a lot to
do with our kids. But there are lots of programs that are there
in the archive and we are going to make sure there are heaps
there to support you while we are away. But next week’s show
will be the last one we record for some time, so make sure you
tune in.
STEVE: Thank you everyone.
Thank you Global Talk Radio for making this possible. We hope
you can all tune in for our last show of the year next week.
KIM: Bye!
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