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LOVE SAFETY
NET
Transcript
of June 8, 2009, program
"Stonewalling and The Rules"
Steve: Hi everyone, welcome to the Love Safety Net.
Kim: Hi I
am Kim.
Steve: And
I am Steve, and today we are talking about a couple of topics.
The title of today's show is Stonewalling and The Rules and I
hope we are going to break down some male stereotypes today.
Kim: I am
so looking forward to this show’s themes
(laughs).
Maybe you will need to have a lot of questions Steve, because I
just got so much I want to talk about.
Steve:
Well, I have got questions and I am really excited about this
subject as well, because there is so much bad advice and
misunderstanding out there. But rather than just talk about the
stuff that we disagree with, we are also going to talk about
some of our own ideas. We will talk about some of the things we
disagree with though, like The Rules. The Rules is a book about
the dating game. But first we are going to be talking about
Stonewalling.
Kim: (laughs)
So I think what you’re saying Steve is, we are going to try and
be proactive while we still do disagree!
Steve:
That’s right. And I tried to put that as nice as I possibly
could.
Kim: (laughs)
So okay, starting on Stonewalling, you did a bit more research
on this than me Steve, and there seems to be quite a few
different definitions out there. Before we give a solution … or
our idea of a solution to this problem, where maybe
misunderstandings come in, let's get the definition clear. What
are we talking about when we say stonewalling?
Steve:
Okay, well I did some research through the week before the show
and I found a few different definitions and perhaps some of them
take it off into a different definition than we have. Now,
stonewalling is basically about someone who intentionally stops
communicating. Now, it also had a derivation and this is where
we disagree and that is somebody who is using lying tactics in
a conversation, within a relationship. Stalling tactics. Perhaps
not telling the truth. Telling a lie in order to perhaps extend
the argument to a point where there is no chance for the truth
to come out. Now, we have a different definition for that. And
that is called confabulation.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
Because it is actually coming up with lies and manipulation, in
order to create a dead end with what that person is looking for
.
Kim: It’s
a great word, confabulation, and if you don’t know what it
means, take the time to look it up in the dictionary, (laughs).
Steve:
Yes.
Kim:
Specifically if you have a partner who you feel is narcissistic.
It will be well worth your effort. But that isn’t … that’s not
how we would define stonewalling.
Steve:
Yes. So, stonewalling as opposed to confabulation; stonewalling
is when somebody simply refuses to talk. And the common term for
it is 'the silent treatment.' And we all know how unfortunate
and horrible the silent treatment can be.
Kim: Yes,
when suddenly you are talking to a brick wall.
Steve:
That’s right. And where silence is the manner in which the
person is communicating.
Kim:
(laughs) Well, I mean, I know exactly how awful it can be to
deal with that Steve. I remember it very well with you and in
other relationships I’ve been in. And I really have to admit
that I also … Now that I think about it ... have a lot of
sadness around this. And a bit of guilt and even a bit of shame.
Because I didn’t understand men well enough back then and I
didn’t understand where you were coming from when you used to
just freeze up and stop talking and you’d get that really cold,
arrogant look on your face and you’d stop communicating with me.
Steve: Mmm.
KIm: And
back then, I really felt that … you know, you were just this
cold-hearted, you know, male stereotype guy who was just
heartless.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: And
unfeeling. And that you were really intentionally being cruel to
me.
Steve:
Right.
Kim: That
you really were enjoying it in a quite sadistic way of hurting
me, by refusing to communicate with me about things that I
obviously felt quite upset about or felt emotional about. And
so, back then, and I think my reaction was the same as a lot of
women to this … And men too, I am not saying that only men
stonewall, but we will get to that in a minute ... but I would
get very upset. And I would get very angry about that. And I’d
be wanting to tear down your stonewall.
Steve: Mmm.
Kim: And
you know, I would get really nasty and say things that I
probably regretted later and didn’t really mean. And obviously
that would just make you put up the wall even more.
Steve:
Sure. It’s very provocative. You found it very provocative.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: The
silent thing that I was doing.
Kim: Well,
I thought that you were just doing that to hurt me.
Steve:
Sure.
Kim: You
know, and I think when I … you know, when I read other peoples’
experiences, that’s what a lot of people feel. They see this as
something that is really being done aggressively to them. They
see it as an aggressive manoeuvre. I really see that … from all
the studying and research and understanding that I’ve come to
now, I see it very differently now. And I am really glad to be
able to talk about this at last and hopefully shed a little bit
of light on this for other people. So how I see it differently,
I guess, is that … you know, men actually reach emotional
overwhelm much faster than women do.
Steve:
Okay.
Kim: And I
think we all know what it feels like to reach emotional
overwhelm. Where you get to that point where you just can’t talk
anymore. You are too overwhelmed with emotions. That may be
sadness. That may be guilt. That may be grief. Some negative
emotions. And you know, men don’t tend to have the emotional
vocabulary that women have. They don’t have the same tools to
deal with their emotions. They don’t tend to have as much
emotional courage. You know, they don’t tend to have the same
level of emotional intelligence as women.
Steve: Mmm.
Kim: And
when a woman is critical or is maybe … demanding things they
don’t know how to give, it’s … well men tend to go into
emotional overwhelm very quickly then.
Steve: And
certainly much quicker than a woman usually would.
Kim: Yes.
And when they do it’s very hard … it’s a lot harder for them
than a woman to know how to signal this to their partner: hey,
I’m just too upset to talk. I’m feeling choked up. I’m
frightened that I’m going to start crying.
(Laughs)
Wouldn’t you agree Steve, this is very difficult for a man to
let on?
Steve:
Well, that’s true. That’s when … that silent treatment seems
like the best course of action for a man.
Kim: Mmm.
Steve:
It’s kind of like the safest option. Okay, I am feeling all
these things, I don’t know what they are. I am emotionally a
wreck. I can’t put my finger on it, so I am going to say
nothing.
Kim: Yes,
And I am going to clam up and try and get my emotions back under
control.
Steve: And
also, with facial expressions as well. Not show … not mimicking
and laughing.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: Not
being making any kind of faces that is showing any kind of …
putting any signal out. It’s putting no signal.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
It’s a stonewall signal. J
Kim: But I
think also when a man does this, there just tends to be a bit of
aggression on his face. Because they are putting on that tough
exterior.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: He is
feeling vulnerable inside, and so he puts on a tough exterior on
the outside. And I think that’s just a habitual response with
men.
Steve: The
Clinton Eastwood look (laughs).
Kim: Yes,
and this is really at the heart of the message in our books …
that everybody feels vulnerable when they are in love. And if …
I don't know how many times I explain this to women, you know if
you are in a relationship and you are demanding that your
partner make you feel safe emotionally, you really have to
understand what kind of stress this puts on them. If they really
are in love with you, they are probably feeling very vulnerable
too (laughs) and they are probably not in a situation where
they are able to make you feel safe. You know relationships
should be about mutual trust building, where each person slowly
builds trust and you each start to feel safe with each other,
it's a reciprocal thing, that goes back and forth and that ...
really can’t be forced.
Steve:
That’s true.
Kim: And I
think that as difficult as it is to deal with a partner who
stonewalls you, it just goes on habitually. The man then freezes
up because he is trying to just deal with it and he doesn’t know
what to do. She gets really NASTY then and starts saying some
really mean things that really SHOCK him. He’s just going: WOW,
is that what she really thinks about me?
Steve: Mmm.
Kim:
OOUUCCHH! (laughs)
Sorry Steve, that happened
and probably not just with me.
Steve: No,
with a lot of women.
Kim: But
that was in the past.
Steve:
Absolutely.
Kim: And
then you get harder, don’t you?
Steve:
That’s right.
Kim: You
really do start deciding to put that stonewall up and say: well,
maybe I DON’T care. Well, maybe I DO hate you. Well, maybe I AM
trying to hurt you.
Steve:
Absolutely. So, it’s very much a misunderstanding here, isn’t
it?
Kim: Mmm.
Steve: So
there has been an emotion that’s occurred.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
Somebody’s feeling something, to put it in plain simple English.
And then ... there’s an exterior being put across, and that’s
the stonewalling. And that’s just the silence ... it’s just a
defence mechanism, more than anything else.
KIm: Yes.
Steve:
Isn’t it?
Kim: Yes,
absolutely.
Steve: So
it’s not really allowing this person’s overwhelmed feelings as
emotions to come through, but it’s just a quick defence to say:
okay, I am not sure what I’m doing, so I’m not going to give
anything right this very minute.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: So
we’re in ... it’s the beginning of a bit of a bind in many ways.
Isn’t it, Kim?
Kim: And
it’s important to know how to deal with this proactively. So if
you have a partner who has stopped talking, and you’re in the
middle of something which is emotional, there is a couple of
different ways that you can go. You can tread gently and you can
say: "You seem a little bit overwhelmed, do you want to tell me
how you are feeling?"
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: And
try and help them to identify their emotions. You know. Are you
feeling threatened by what I am saying? Or are you feeling ...
You know, whatever. You can go through the list; is this making
you feel sad? You can try and help them, but you have to
remember in doing this, if the person is overwhelmed they may
not even be at a point where they are able to do that. So if
they don’t answer, it doesn’t mean that they are rejecting you.
They are just too overwhelmed to speak.
Steve:
That’s right.
Kim: So if
you can’t help them identify the emotion that they are feeling
and help them move forward in that way. The best thing to do is
maybe saying ... and this saves your own pride as well, because
nobody likes to be left sitting there, with a partner who is not
responding, you can say: look, I see that you are feeling
perhaps a little bit overwhelmed with all of this. Why don’t we
just give this a little bit of time?
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: I’ve
got some things that I need to do in the other room, so I will
give you a bit of space and finish clearing up.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: And
really make sure that you are not turning your back on them and
you’re not shutting them out and you’re not leaving in any kind
of aggressive way.
Steve:
Sure.
Kim: If
you say: why don’t you take a little bit of time? You know,
kindness at this point is going to work the best ... some
sympathy and empathy ... Even if you have brought up something
that you are upset with them about. You can say, "We can talk
about this a little bit later when you have had a little bit
more time to think about this and come to terms with what I am
asking for. And to reassure the person that you really do love
them, you know. And I think with this understanding ... a lot
of that breakdown that happens at that point that can turn a
relationship very ugly very quickly, and turn to fighting, can
really just be derailed and turned into something which is trust
building instead.
Steve:
Absolutely and these proactive steps you talk about require a
strengthening decision in the partner. In the person who is
dealing with the stonewalling.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
Because in many ways it would be much easier to flip into the
aggression that we talk about, and the anger and the
frustration.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
Letting that get the better of you.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
Which is very much what we talk a lot about in our work, about
making strengthening decisions. It’s a good opportunity for you
to find that bit of strength inside you. To say: okay, I’m just
going to do something proactive now. I’m just going to take the
kids out for a minute.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: I’m
going to take a deep breath.
Kim: Yes
(laughing).
Steve: And
I’m going to say ... like you were suggesting before, you know,
all the suggestions you made. Perhaps trying help them define
what the emotion is, or perhaps just let’s cool this off for
half an hour. It’s very much an opportunity for you to build
some better skills.
Kim: And
build TRUST.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: And I
think that ... If you can see it in that way, saying: well, I’ve
got a choice here. Am I going to push my own agenda further,
when my partner is obviously overwhelmed and not in a position
where they can deal with this? Or am I going to use this
situation to build trust?
Steve: Mmm.
Kim: And
to show that I notice when they are emotionally overwhelmed and
that I care about them and see them as an emotional being. I
don’t just expect my own emotions to be taken care of but
recognise and empathise with their emotions too, and if you can
use this opportunity to build trust and to deepen that trust
between you, then ... Well, then ... It may very well then be
that, you know, in a day or two, or in an hour or two, your
partners does give that extra trust, to be able to open up more
and deal with ... you know
Steve: The
real issue at hand.
Kim: Yes,
whatever your issue was that you wanted to discuss.
Steve: And
it is never an easy thing to do. But it’s just a good
opportunity. Isn’t that right, Kim? So, okay ... So that’s our
opinion on stonewalling. Now what about The Rules, Kim?
Kim: The
Rules, (laughs) I get so ... I have had so many letters and
questions and people asking me about this. So I’m excited to be
able to talk about it at last. And ... look, okay ... So before
I get into a discussion of what I disagree with about this book
... Because I do disagree with, you know, the way that this is
being put forward, the game playing aspect of it and how
manipulative it all is, I’d rather be proactive first and talk
about what we ARE talking about rather than talk about what
we’re NOT talking about. Okay?
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: So we
are Kim and Steve and we are talking about being more attractive
with your partner, having a better relationship, whether you’re
dating or whether you’re already married. The rules ... Our
rules would be, I would say goals, number one. And also learning
how to set your partner challenges. Instead of making demands on
them. Okay?
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: So,
as far as goals go, I just can’t emphasise how important this
is. Having goals is going to make you more attractive. Having
goals is going to stop you blaming your partner for stuff and
projecting stuff onto the people around you. It’s going to give
you better mental health. It’s going to improve your self
esteem. It’s going to bring rewards. To you in your life, in
real terms. But not all goals are equal. And choosing the right
goals is incredibly important and should really take some time
and ... you know, it is a processes that you go through. And I
have actually a new book I am working on at the moment, so
there’ll be more on this later when I get this new book
finished. But also challenges ... okay, it's the other thing
that would be ... Kim’s Rule (laughs), for dating and being more
attractive. Learn how to challenge a man. So this is talking
about rules for women with men like what the book The Rules is
about.
Steve: And
goals are for men and women.
Kim: O, I
think a lot of this is good for both men and women. But men
really love a challenge.
Steve:
Absolutely. The challenges is a little bit different, isn’t it?
Kim: Yes,
challenge is a women's best friend ... That would be my second
Rule. The first is goals and the second: learn to challenge a
man. It slides into the goals thing, because goals make you look
... high status.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: And
men really like that. They want a woman who is classy.
Steve:
Sure.
Kim: And
who is going to bring status to them even if they are not
classy. Guys are into status. They really are. Even if they
support a losing football team, there’ll still be a reason why
they think that team is better than every other team, and gives
them some kind of status.
Steve:
Absolutely.
Kim: Maybe
the values that team represents, the underdog, or whatever.
Steve:
Yes, they might like the logo that team has.
Kim: Yes.
Guys are into status. They are into what car they drive and what
team they support. And they want a girl with status too. Someone
who is nagging and whining and complaining all the time and
doesn’t have goals that they working towards isn’t somebody with
status. Learning how to challenge a man on the other hand,
increases your worth in you own eyes and in your partner’s eyes.
If you’re someone who can say: "Well, I’m not really looking
for a guy who is all that flashy, I’m actually looking for a man
who is solid and down to earth. The kind of guy I can count on
and who pays his bills ... Let’s see if that’s you? (laughs).
That kind
of line thrown to a man ... What do you think, Steve?
Steve:
Well, absolutely. Men are going to take that kind of bait.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: If
that’s what you’re thinking, yes.
Kim:
(laughs) I mean bait in the right way. I mean, so he says OK
I’m showing you now how reliable and steady I can be! (laughs)
Steve:
Well, men are into that kind of stuff. And men do like proving
themselves and so yes they might fall for it because it’s not
like a real trap. But men actually are VERY much interested in
proving that they can be ...
Kim: They
love it, (laughs).
Steve:
That they can be useful. And I mean, that can mean lot of
various things because guys do want to feel like they are
useful.
Kim: Yes.
And they want to be patted on the head when they achieve the
challenge.
Steve:
Yes, absolutely.
Kim: They
love ... I don’t want to sound awful here, but it’s like dogs
chasing sticks (laughs).
Steve:
Well, guys like dogs and sticks too!
Kim: Yes,
guys like challenges. And if you can learn to set challenges for
your man, you are going to be very attractive.
Steve:
Absolutely.
Kim: So,
how does this relate to The Rules? Okay. There is this book out
and everybody talks about The Rules. And as far as I can see,
most of it is just about playing hard to get. Okay? So, you can
play hard to get, and you can sit there and you can worry about
... should I say yes or no to a date if he calls me on Thursday
for Saturday? I think that was one of them. You know, they had
to call for a date before Wednesday or something.
Steve: Mmm.
Kim: Ahh,
I mean ... the line that really got me was when they said: men
know this. They know that they should call before Wednesday for
a date on Saturday . I mean ...
Steve: If
they really like you.
Kim: If
they really like you, they know that they should do that. That
just floored me. I mean, do men really know that, Steve?
Steve: I
don’t think so. I know when I was actually courting you, Kim.
Well, I was terrified.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
About asking you out and I didn’t know what day of the week it
was. I was just ... I didn’t have the courage.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: You
know and that’s very much what men feel. They don’t ... They’re
not as in control. They put across this image, that they’re in
control, but really, when it comes to women, they’re really VERY
insecure.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: And
they really need to summon up the courage. And it’s not easy.
There is a lot of ... you know, roller coaster activity in their
stomach. And ... (laughs) You know, they’re really not so sure.
So I think that assumption, that men really know that they need
to call before Wednesday for a Saturday night date, I think we
can just kick that one off (laughs). Yes, because I disagree.
Kim: And I
think it just falls into this male stereotype thing, where men
... You know, men aren’t going to argue with that. O yes, we’re
the big hunters, we’re the big cold hearted hunters and we’re so
tough and we’re so brave. And you know, the further and further
you go down that road ... You know, men get really hurt by this.
These ideas and these misconceptions leave men so emotionally
vulnerable in relationships, where ... I just see them and I
just feel so much for men I really do. The more I learn about
relationships and psychology, the more I feel for them. And I
feel for women too. And I know that men can be cold-hearted and
can appear cool and I know men can appear to just be out for the
chase. But so much has this come from this misunderstanding. You
know, when there isn’t trust built between two people, and the
courtship ritual is misunderstood ... You know, what kind of
trust does it build from somebody turning down dates that they
really wanted to go on? You know, that they are sitting at home.
So they’re putting out an appearance of: oh, I’m someone who’s
goal oriented and I’m someone who is really high status. Because
I don’t have time to go out on this date with you on Saturday
because you didn’t book in early enough with me, because I’m
just so important and busy, (laughs) when maybe they really
wanted to go on the date. And they are not going on any date
anyway on Saturday ... I mean, this to me is just, besides being
deceitful, it’s just ...
Steve: It
creates a lot of confusion. Doesn’t it?
Kim: Well,
it does. And it creates a lot of hurt. Because this game is
obviously ... even if the guy falls for it, this game is
obviously at some point all going to come falling down.
Steve:
Sure.
Kim: And
it’s going to come ...
Steve:
It’s not based on anything real.
Kim: It’s
not based on anything real, that the woman is actually doing
like setting some goals for herself and working on them and
improving her self esteem in that way. You know, sure, if you’ve
got goals for yourself that you put boundaries around, there is
going to sometimes be scheduling conflict and you are going to
have to say no to some dates.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim:
Because you have your goals to work on. And you do have real
boundaries around your goals. Because you ARE someone with a bit
of status and a bit of self respect. But if that’s real, you can
also do that very warmly.
Steve: Yes
(laughs)
Kim: (laughs)
You can refuse the date in a
way where you are not rejecting the man.
Steve:
That’s right.
Kim: There
is a lot of research to show that ... People only have to feel
that they have been rejected once and most people will never try
again.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: So
(laughs) ... The way that this is done in the book The Rules is
kind of weird. You know, there is a lot of grey areas that I
think could be very misleading. And we’ve found, from the people
that have written to us that a lot of women trying to work with
these ideas of 'The Rules' from the book by that title, have
actually hurt their relationships quite badly.
Steve:
Yes, I think I just wanted to clarify this, Kim. And I’m not
sure if you’re ready to talk about this yet. But there is an
assumption with these Rules that it’s a game that’s being
played.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: And
... Okay, that’s all well and good and there is a dating game
and there is an ... We understand that when people are dating
there is some kind of game being played ... but beyond that,
the game needs to end at some stage. Because at some stage
people need to connect emotionally.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: And
vulnerabilities need to be allowed to be seen and be nurtured
within each other. And once a good relationship and a nice bond
has formed, the games ... You know, it’s everybody’s imperative
to make sure that there isn’t anymore game playing happening.
Kim: Well,
I don’t think that there ever needs to be any games.
Steve:
Sure. Absolutely.
Kim: I
mean, courtship rituals ... I would call it courtship ritual.
You know, is important.
Steve: But
there’s a difference there.
Kim: Yes
and that comes into the things that we teach in our books, about
emotional intelligence. You know, there are things that are
going to make you more attractive and fit in with people better.
And again, getting back to this book The Rules ... You know,
they are also saying: you’ve got to make yourself unique, and
show him how special you are. And I just cringed when I saw
that. Because, okay, that might work for some classy New York
chicks that are already high status. But there are so many girls
who get this wrong. And they are out there ... I mean, that is
actually going to be part of another book I am working on,
called Emotional Stupidity (laughs). The number of women I see
who are out there trying to make themselves look unique and
special like "I’m so emotionally complex ..." This actually just
makes men ... not just the men, but a lot of the people around
them just head for the hills. "I’m so unique because I wear
black nail polish". Or whatever. And this doesn’t make them
attractive at all. Because it’s really how we fit in with other
people that makes us attractive, not how we are trying to stand
out and make ourselves special. You know, you can build your
status by having your goals and allocating times for those
goals. But when you’re out with people in public, yes, you need
to dress appropriately and dress well, but you want to dress
similar to the people that you want to be hanging out with.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: Not
trying to stand out too much and be too different. You want to
join in in the activity at hand. You want to get in sync with
people who you are talking to.
Steve: You
want to show that you are flexible. You’re adaptable. But not
being simply conformist. You’re not just conforming because you
are fearful. You’re actually showing that you’re flexible,
you’re adaptable, you’re able to read other people, you’re able
to connect with other people, and say: hey, I think I’d like to
go with this for a little while, because it looks like I’ll have
some fun and they might enjoy my company too.
Kim: And
that you’re not ...
Steve: You
can be very positive in that.
Kim: Yes.
And that you’re not someone who talks about your own ambitions
for too long or at too much length, especially if no one asked.
Steve:
Sure.
Kim: That
you notice from the look on other people’s faces if they find
the conversation topic boring, and you’re flexible enough to
change the conversation. I mean, these are all very, very
important things that people need to learn if they want to
improve their social skills. And they want to improve their
their relationships with other people. And none of them have
anything to do with trying to make yourself look like you’re
really unique and special and important. You know ... behaving
in that way is usually what gets people into all kind of
trouble.
Steve:
Exactly and this is what we are so scared about after reading a
lot of the reviews and the interviews that have come from this
book, The Rules. There seems to be an assumption that women need
to make themselves the Prize.
Kim: Mmm.
Steve: And
that really scared us. Didn’t it Kim?
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
Because Kim and I deal with so many people who have to deal with
their abusive relationships every single day.
Kim: Who
are really, at the end of the line in the hard to get game and
have hit rock bottom in their relationship.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: You
know, they’re encountering violence, they’re encountering
emotional abuse and this is where these games can end, it's
where this can be taken, where this misunderstandings can end
up. And this is really very serious. You know, that’s a good
point, Steve, about women making themselves the Prize. And it
seems to be at the heart of so much of this. And it’s a
dangerous game.
Steve:
Absolutely.
Kim: You
shouldn’t be the Prize in your relationship. You know, intimacy
should be something that’s built and evolves and deepens over
time, and is always there. Affection and intimacy shouldn’t be
something that is given and taken away. This is a very unhealthy
idea to be doing that. You know, challenging a guy is different.
The challenges should have their own reward. If you challenge a
guy to do something, it should be something that if he succeeds
in that challenge, there is a reward in that.
Steve:
Absolutely. There is some kind of recognition of that.
Kim: Yes.
That there is a reward in it inherently. Like if I challenge you
to go and do your bronze medallion in Surf Life Savings, Steve
...
Steve:
Which I am terrified about, (laughs). Which I’d rather not do!
Kim: It
might be a bit of a too big challenge (laughs).
Steve: Yes
(laughs).
Kim: But
if I ... would you mind if I use it as an example?
Steve:
Yes, it’s a good example.
Kim: If
you went and did that, there would be heaps of rewards in that
for you rather than me just making myself be the Prize. You’d
get a suntan, you’d get fit, you’d get the bronze medallion,
you’d make a lot of friends.
Steve:
That would be a heck of a Prize.
Kim: And
it would be good for your self esteem. And if I set you that
kind of challenge and it was a challenge you would enjoy. You
would really know, "Hey well, Kim really likes me, that she set
me that challenge. You know, she knows me and she likes me". And
you’d build rapport in your relationship from doing that. Rather
than: "You do this and this and this for me and then maybe I’ll
come across and I’ll be the Prize". I don’t like that stuff. I
don’t think that stuff ...
Steve:
Yes, and your suggestion of challenging someone like me to get
my bronze medallion ... there is a gift in that challenge ...
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
It’s there inherently and that’s really an important point.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
Just getting back to the very scary thing, what we were talking
about before, women perhaps making themselves the Prize. And
this book perhaps having this assumption or perhaps this kind of
recommendation that women go down that path ... We’re really
frightened, because it seems to be an idea, that once a marriage
proposal has come, well then that’s the end of the dating game.
Kim: (laughs)
Yes.
Steve:
That’s the end of the mating ritual and courtship ritual.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: And
that’s really frightening. Because when ... The kind of stories
we get from people that write to us that are having marriage
difficulties ... One of the most important things we are trying
to get across is that that mating ritual and the idea we were
talking about earlier, about building trust and about building
rapport, needs to continue, forever.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: In
perpetuity. We always need to be challenging each other,
building rapport, reaching out, being playful. All of these
things. It doesn’t end at the end of the dating game. It doesn’t
end at the marriage proposal. Once you get the rock on your
finger, well, you know, nothing has ended. Nothing has ended.
Kim: No.
Steve: You
may get married. You may get a piece of paper.
Kim: And
these days there is not much security in that anyway. So if you
think that you are going to make your marriage last while you
just turn into the ball and chain and the marriage is a solid
contract and is your guarantee, you know I don’t think anybody
fools themselves about that.
Steve:
That’s right. There is a lot of anxiety about that, these days.
Kim: Yes.
Now, I’m wondering ... How much time do we have left, Steve?
Because what you were saying was so interesting, and I’d love to
talk about Bettina Arndt ???. Now, she’s a sex therapist in
Australia. She’s very famous here. And I read a great article
that she wrote, I think for the Women’s Weekly, recently. If
we’ve got time. Would you like that?
Steve:
Yes, yes. We do and I would.
Kim:
Because I think, it was also very much in line with of what you
were saying Steve about the relationship continuing into
marriage. And you needing to continue building that rapport and
that trust. And the courtship continuing. And I think it also
falls into breaking down these male stereotypes. And the last
one I think we might tackle on the show today is this idea that
men are just these kind of sex machines creatures that don’t
really have feelings.
Steve: Mmm.
Kim: And
they just want sex all the time and you can reject them as often
as you want. And you can sort of ... again, like make yourself
the Prize. And they are going to just keep wanting it. And they
are going to keep chasing you. And, I like Bettina Arndts’
article, because in her research she says: nothing could be
further from the truth. Men feel rejection just as much as women
do.
Steve: Mmm.
Kim:
Nobody likes being rejected. And this doesn’t mean that you
always have to have sex with somebody whether you feel like it
or not.
Steve:
Yes.
Kim: But
you do ... You know, men need their feelings considered just as
much as women need their feelings considered. And specifically
in this story she was writing, she was saying that an enormous
number of middle aged men that she sees in her office whose
wives have for years basically just refused to have sex with
them. They still consider that they have a healthy, great
marriage, nothing wrong with the marriage, but they just
continually reject their male partner sexually.
Steve: Mmm.
Kim: And
that the men don’t know how to show their wives how upset they
are about it. But the men in therapy are more honest about it
and they say that they are just devastated and they are just
heart broken. And they just ... you know, even when they are
turning to prostitutes and pornography and other things, it’s
not what they really want. They really just want the girl that
they were dating back and they are just absolutely so
heartbroken that she is gone.
Steve:
There is a real confidence issue there for men. And it doesn’t
really ever go away. Even if you have a very good relationship.
Or you are into a long term relationship with your partner. Men
still have this confidence issue with sex. Sometimes they’re
very confident.
Kim: Mmm.
Steve: And
I think women are probably the same. Sometimes they feel very
confident about themselves and feeling very sexual and feeling
very affectionate, and other times they’re not. Men are the
same. But men do feel very insecure. And they can often ... as
you said, they can often feel very, very hurt if they get
rejected.
Kim: Mmm.
Steve: So
we ... I know a lot of guys that write to me, on the list, that
admit this freely, that they are just really not so sure. And it
can come across, like we got back to earlier in this program,
about stonewalling, it can come across as hostile, it can come
across as cold. But it’s really underneath ... there’s a lot of
hurt and misunderstanding. And a lot of issues that are very
difficult to talk about. Men don’t really have ... a lot of men,
I should say, don’t have the vocabulary to talk about it. Where
as women may.
Kim: Mmm.
We get deeper into that, especially in our book Love Safety Net
Workbook. We have more ideas on actually identifying your
emotions better, building that kind of trust and rapport with
your partner in simple ways. Because it is the ... it is the
really simple things that are usually the one that make all the
difference in the world. Like your tone of voice when you greet
your partner, saying their name like you’re really excited to
see them, and like you like them.
Steve:
Lively dialogues.
Yes. And
doing that every time you greet them. You know, every time: like
me saying "Steve!" showing you I am glad to see you.
And: "Hi,
Kim! How are you doing?"
Kim: And
our kids tease us about it, because we do that so much all the
time with each other and we do it with them as well.
(laughs)
and even when they tease us
about it, you see these big smiles on their faces because they
just love it.
Steve:
Yes. There is no misunderstanding in it. They know we’re not
manipulating them.
Kim: Yes.
Steve:
They really feel the genuine love from us.
Kim:
Everybody loves to hear their name said in a way like, you know,
they’re welcomed and liked and that you are glad to see them.
These things ... these small things that have to do with
attachment, that build trust, that build rapport, that build a
sense of security in relationships and in families ... And I
think that these things can easily be learned.
Absolutely. Before we give away all of our secrets, Kim ...
(Laughs)
I think we
may have to wrap the show up, because we are running out of
time.
Kim:
Terrific. Well, I really enjoyed talking to you about this
Steve.
Steve:
Yes, me too. I really hope that everyone gets something from it.
Kim: Yes.
Steve: And
we’ll see you all next time when you tune into the Love Safety
Net. Thanks for listening.
Kim: Bye!
Steve:
Bye!
Thanks for
listening to the Love Safety Net on Global Talk Radio.
Note: For
more on The Rules for dating according to Kim and Steve please
visit
http://www.therules.info
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